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Hm, so a vaccine that does not stop transmission does not create selective pressure on the virus? Wouldn’t that be unusual from an evolutionary biology standpoi

Hm, so a vaccine that does not stop transmission does not create selective pressure on the virus? Wouldn’t that be unusual from an evolutionary biology standpoint? Can we at least agree that if infected, as a vaccinated and asymptomatic carrier, there is a higher chance of transmission than if I were unvaccinated and symptomatic? This seems like common sense to me, but I recognize it goes against the Covid orthodoxy. Also, when you say “inconvenient,” what do you mean exactly? To me, total restriction on movement and segregation from society based on medical status seems like more than an inconvenience. Maybe I’m just an anti-vaxxer, a victim of misinformation… if only I could think for myself.

lillecarl 5y ago
The point is vaccinating everyone, just like we did with Smallpox. Which is essentially dead because of vaccination.
- mythrwy 5y ago
  This is an entirely different situation then smallpox though. The modes of action are not the same.
  - TechBro8615 5y ago
    Also, the CFR of smallpox is 95%.
- nradov 5y ago
  While I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, you're not making a valid comparison. We were able to effectively eradicate smallpox (except for a few lab samples) because the vaccines are highly sterilizing and there were no animal reservoirs. That situation doesn't obtain with SARS-CoV-2. The vaccines are pretty good at preventing deaths but don't reliably prevent infection or transmission. And most mammal species can transmit the virus; cases have been confirmed in dogs, cats, minks, deer, tigers, etc.
  - codemonkey-zeta 5y ago
    > there were no animal reservoirs This is a fact vaccine-zealots never address (I am double vaccinated by the way). If the end game is 100% vaccination in human population (including the enormous unvaccinated reservoir of the developing world, since the rate in those countries is often single-digit percentages) we will _still_ get novel variants which bypass the latest vaccines. Are we really supposed to forcibly administer vaccines every n-months to the entire human population for the rest of eternity? It seems utterly absurd. I don't see why the "just build more hospitals" commenter was down-voted/flagged in this thread. It at least seems more economically viable. Mobilize the national guard to do it if it comes to that. Treating those who develop covid seems a way better route than attempting the futile game of "prevention" via a vaccine regime. We will never get to Covid eradication. It's just not possible. Yet, most of my vaccinated compatriots seem to buy into that delusion.
    - mminer237 5y ago
      The rates of animal transmission are very low. If we eliminate it in humans, it's unlikely that the virus could sustain itself in animal populations and unlikely to reinfect the already-vaccinated humans.
      - codemonkey-zeta 5y ago
        Judging by the fact that the whole pandemic was ostensibly started by an animal->human transmission, I'm highly skeptical of your claim.
    - bigodbiel 5y ago
      We were setting field hospitals last year left and right in anticipation, most, luckily went unused. I don’t understand why can’t this be repeated, heck implement a protocol for quick deployment of few but massive such facilities and let economy of scale take over.
    - koolba 5y ago
      > (I am double vaccinated by the way). It's sad that "I'm vaccinated..." became the 2021 version of, "I'm not a racist...".
- _Understated_ 5y ago
  > The point is vaccinating everyone, just like we did with Smallpox. Which is essentially dead because of vaccination. It has been shown time and again that the covid jag does not prevent infection/re-infection/transmission so your talk of eradication smacks of propaganda, not science.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    Other countries with Zero COVID policies have been successful at suppressing the virus to extremely low levels. Their citizens laugh at us on social media. At extremely low levels, we can begin to contemplate elimination/eradication.
    - TheGigaChad 5y ago
      I laugh at you because you are a retard.
  - yuubi 5y ago
    And time and again the smallpox vaccine also failed to protect. > Historically, the vaccine has been effective in preventing smallpox infection in 95% of those vaccinated. — https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html (Other sources have numbers from about 90% to 97%). However, this imperfect protection, in enough people, was enough to do the job.
mlazos 5y ago
Your assertion about transmission is definitely not proven. It all comes down to an expected value. An unvaccinated symptomatic individual will shed a lot more virus than a vaccinated asymptomatic one. It would probably take fewer encounters to infect someone else than in the vaccinated case. So although an asymptomatic vaxed person might be out and about more, the lower viral shedding could possibly account for that we don’t know. Also you’re overestimating the intelligence of the average person, symptomatic people do stupid shit all the time [0]. This couple probably infected way more people than an asymptomatic vaxed person. Again not proven. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/03/hawaii-couple-coronavirus-traveled-plane/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/03/hawaii-coup...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
csee 5y ago
Vaccines probably reduce the chance of a new variant. A lower viral load means a lower probability of a mutation happening, given that the number of mutations is proportional to the load over time. There's some small chance that the opposite is true, and vaccines will mean deadly strains are more easily spread since the person is more likely to be asymptomatic or low-symptoms and will therefore not isolate. But on net we expect vaccines to prevent variants.

lillecarl 5y ago

The point is vaccinating everyone, just like we did with Smallpox. Which is essentially dead because of vaccination.

mythrwy 5y ago
This is an entirely different situation then smallpox though. The modes of action are not the same.
- TechBro8615 5y ago
  Also, the CFR of smallpox is 95%.
nradov 5y ago
While I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, you're not making a valid comparison. We were able to effectively eradicate smallpox (except for a few lab samples) because the vaccines are highly sterilizing and there were no animal reservoirs. That situation doesn't obtain with SARS-CoV-2. The vaccines are pretty good at preventing deaths but don't reliably prevent infection or transmission. And most mammal species can transmit the virus; cases have been confirmed in dogs, cats, minks, deer, tigers, etc.
- codemonkey-zeta 5y ago
  > there were no animal reservoirs This is a fact vaccine-zealots never address (I am double vaccinated by the way). If the end game is 100% vaccination in human population (including the enormous unvaccinated reservoir of the developing world, since the rate in those countries is often single-digit percentages) we will _still_ get novel variants which bypass the latest vaccines. Are we really supposed to forcibly administer vaccines every n-months to the entire human population for the rest of eternity? It seems utterly absurd. I don't see why the "just build more hospitals" commenter was down-voted/flagged in this thread. It at least seems more economically viable. Mobilize the national guard to do it if it comes to that. Treating those who develop covid seems a way better route than attempting the futile game of "prevention" via a vaccine regime. We will never get to Covid eradication. It's just not possible. Yet, most of my vaccinated compatriots seem to buy into that delusion.
  - mminer237 5y ago
    The rates of animal transmission are very low. If we eliminate it in humans, it's unlikely that the virus could sustain itself in animal populations and unlikely to reinfect the already-vaccinated humans.
    - codemonkey-zeta 5y ago
      Judging by the fact that the whole pandemic was ostensibly started by an animal->human transmission, I'm highly skeptical of your claim.
  - bigodbiel 5y ago
    We were setting field hospitals last year left and right in anticipation, most, luckily went unused. I don’t understand why can’t this be repeated, heck implement a protocol for quick deployment of few but massive such facilities and let economy of scale take over.
  - koolba 5y ago
    > (I am double vaccinated by the way). It's sad that "I'm vaccinated..." became the 2021 version of, "I'm not a racist...".
_Understated_ 5y ago
> The point is vaccinating everyone, just like we did with Smallpox. Which is essentially dead because of vaccination. It has been shown time and again that the covid jag does not prevent infection/re-infection/transmission so your talk of eradication smacks of propaganda, not science.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  Other countries with Zero COVID policies have been successful at suppressing the virus to extremely low levels. Their citizens laugh at us on social media. At extremely low levels, we can begin to contemplate elimination/eradication.
  - TheGigaChad 5y ago
    I laugh at you because you are a retard.
- yuubi 5y ago
  And time and again the smallpox vaccine also failed to protect. > Historically, the vaccine has been effective in preventing smallpox infection in 95% of those vaccinated. — https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html (Other sources have numbers from about 90% to 97%). However, this imperfect protection, in enough people, was enough to do the job.

mlazos 5y ago

Your assertion about transmission is definitely not proven. It all comes down to an expected value. An unvaccinated symptomatic individual will shed a lot more virus than a vaccinated asymptomatic one. It would probably take fewer encounters to infect someone else than in the vaccinated case. So although an asymptomatic vaxed person might be out and about more, the lower viral shedding could possibly account for that we don’t know. Also you’re overestimating the intelligence of the average person, symptomatic people do stupid shit all the time [0]. This couple probably infected way more people than an asymptomatic vaxed person. Again not proven. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/03/hawaii-couple-coronavirus-traveled-plane/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/03/hawaii-coup...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

csee 5y ago

Vaccines probably reduce the chance of a new variant. A lower viral load means a lower probability of a mutation happening, given that the number of mutations is proportional to the load over time. There's some small chance that the opposite is true, and vaccines will mean deadly strains are more easily spread since the person is more likely to be asymptomatic or low-symptoms and will therefore not isolate. But on net we expect vaccines to prevent variants.