5 ms·

Genuine question: given the current situation, what's the alternative? A lockdown for everyone? Vaccine mandate? Doing nothing and removing restrictions? Someth

by yladiz 5y ago

Genuine question: given the current situation, what's the alternative? A lockdown for everyone? Vaccine mandate? Doing nothing and removing restrictions? Something else?

musicale 5y ago
Is it worse than last winter?
- Arnt 5y ago
  Quite likely, yes. And no. In the part of Germany where I live, 7-day incidence among the unvaccinated is 1726, which is much worse than last winter, and it's 112 among the vaccinated. Hospitalisation tells a similar story: The unvaccinated are suffering. If that 1726 would rise as it did last winter, a lot of unvaccinated fools would die. A hundred thousand dead in three months, perhaps.
  - musicale 5y ago
    :(
disneygibson 5y ago
Increase hospital staff? Encourage social distancing? I don’t know, anything other than creating second class citizens in a country with a horrible history of it?
- yladiz 5y ago
  Increasing staff won't add more beds to already full hospitals, though. And social distancing has been encouraged for a while, even for the vaccinated, and it hasn't seemed to help.
  - disneygibson 5y ago
    Then build new hospitals. Or learn to live with it. Authoritarianism isn’t somehow justified because current actions “haven’t seemed to help.” That’s the playbook of every oppressive regime since the beginning of time: this is an emergency so we don’t need to follow laws or respect rights.
- yoghurt 5y ago
  You can't simply increase hospital staff - these are highly trained people. That's an investment that takes years to pay off. Encouraging social distancing doesn't work, people are tired of it and many either didn't care in the first place or don't care now that they are fully vaccinated. Many western countries messed up big time by not investing enough into their health care systems or into properly educating their population. So now they're out of options.
- Arnt 5y ago
  The hospitals have been hiring nonstop. Unfortunately medical staff is also leaving the hospitals that treat corona patients. As one said, speaking to a journalist, the current patients are a "potpourri of difficult personalities", so the nurses apply for jobs at things like eye clinic and the hospitals can't even operate the beds they have.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
tinus_hn 5y ago
Imagine a world in which the vaccine does not exist. What would you do then? That is the alternative.
- yladiz 5y ago
  We don't live in a world without the vaccine, so I don't see the argument.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    A possible answer to your question of what we could do if we do not want to force people to get vaccinated is the same as what we could do if people could not be vaccinated. You said it was your ‘genuine question’. So I’m not sure why you need to see the argument. It’s an answer to your question, not an argument.
    - detaro 5y ago
      So basically lockdown for all, because restricting the rights of everybody is better than restricting the rights of some. Good luck convincing the courts that that's the minimal necessary restriction.
      - tinus_hn 5y ago
        There are more options than ‘lockdown for all’, but yes, it would be one of the things you could do if vaccinations were not available.
        detaro 5y ago
        But vaccinations are available, so you likely can't do it legally.
        tinus_hn 5y ago
        That’s for the courts to decide. Is a lockdown not allowed because forcing people to vaccinate is an option? Or is forcing people to vaccinate not allowed because lockdown is an option?
musicale 5y ago
Does managing indoor humidity help? It seems to with other respiratory viruses.
- yosito 5y ago
  Yes! Indoor humidity helps in at least two ways: 1) Humidity prevents aerosol transmission 2) Humidity helps the cillia in your airways function better and remove foreign particles, including viruses faster before they have a chance to infect you.
shoto_io 5y ago
Probably not much. All KPIs are heading down now anyways, just look into the RKI dashboard [1]. Doing a quick math exercise underscores this: 70% are vaccinated, 6 million had it (at least, the number is probably higher), so in total 80-85% of the population already had it or is vaccinated by now. Numbers should go down now from now, which they actually start to do, if you look in the dashboard. [1] https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Dez_2021/2021-12-02-de.pdf?__blob=publicationFile https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus...
- yladiz 5y ago
  It's not great, and I do wish that the current coalition had prepared a bit more for this winter, rather than assuming 1. enough people would get vaccinated, and 2. that it wouldn't come back seasonally like last year. They really should have prepared months ago. I can't think of a better alternative given the current situation if the end goal is to get people to reduce contact and get vaccinated, short of a full lockdown for everyone (which I think is a lot less preferable). Whether this form of lockdown will have any effect remains to be seen.
  - shoto_io 5y ago
    It’s absurd to believe that this will actually do anything additional to reduce infections on the short term. People don’t get infected while shopping. This is just meant to pressure the unvaccinated to get vaccinated which might help next year. Unvaccinated people will just meet privately at home and get infected. It’s just the wrong move at the worst possible time.
    - kitkat_new 5y ago
      > Unvaccinated people will just meet privately at home and get infected. they are anyways
    - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
      > People don’t get infected while shopping. What's so special about shopping that it prevents transmission of a relatively communicable disease?
swader999 5y ago
Focus on early treatment. Drugs like ivermectin, hcq, fluvoxamine
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Ivermectin and hcq do nothing for covid. No idea what fluvoxamine is.
  - swader999 5y ago
    I hope you or someone close to you never get as desperate as I was. Saved my life.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    It's an antidepressant. I don't think it has any effect on COVID, either proven or rumoured.
    - nradov 5y ago
      There have been several small studies which show fluvoxamine is an effective COVID-19 treatment. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=covid+fluvoxamine https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=covid+fluvoxamine Results are still somewhat preliminary and it isn't formally approved for that use but I know that many physicians are prescribing it off label and report positive results. The safety profile is good as a temporary acute treatment so there's little reason not to use it.
      - GekkePrutser 5y ago
        Huh I hadn't heard of that yet. I wonder if the same goes for other SSRIs. It's a pretty big class.
Apaec 5y ago
Control the media to stop the panic, that only worsens things with a nocebo effect. Gradually remove restrictions since numbers are going down anyways.

by yladiz 5y ago

Genuine question: given the current situation, what's the alternative? A lockdown for everyone? Vaccine mandate? Doing nothing and removing restrictions? Something else?

musicale 5y ago

Is it worse than last winter?

Arnt 5y ago
Quite likely, yes. And no. In the part of Germany where I live, 7-day incidence among the unvaccinated is 1726, which is much worse than last winter, and it's 112 among the vaccinated. Hospitalisation tells a similar story: The unvaccinated are suffering. If that 1726 would rise as it did last winter, a lot of unvaccinated fools would die. A hundred thousand dead in three months, perhaps.
- musicale 5y ago
  :(

disneygibson 5y ago

Increase hospital staff? Encourage social distancing? I don’t know, anything other than creating second class citizens in a country with a horrible history of it?

yladiz 5y ago
Increasing staff won't add more beds to already full hospitals, though. And social distancing has been encouraged for a while, even for the vaccinated, and it hasn't seemed to help.
- disneygibson 5y ago
  Then build new hospitals. Or learn to live with it. Authoritarianism isn’t somehow justified because current actions “haven’t seemed to help.” That’s the playbook of every oppressive regime since the beginning of time: this is an emergency so we don’t need to follow laws or respect rights.
yoghurt 5y ago
You can't simply increase hospital staff - these are highly trained people. That's an investment that takes years to pay off. Encouraging social distancing doesn't work, people are tired of it and many either didn't care in the first place or don't care now that they are fully vaccinated. Many western countries messed up big time by not investing enough into their health care systems or into properly educating their population. So now they're out of options.
Arnt 5y ago
The hospitals have been hiring nonstop. Unfortunately medical staff is also leaving the hospitals that treat corona patients. As one said, speaking to a journalist, the current patients are a "potpourri of difficult personalities", so the nurses apply for jobs at things like eye clinic and the hospitals can't even operate the beds they have.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

tinus_hn 5y ago

Imagine a world in which the vaccine does not exist. What would you do then? That is the alternative.

yladiz 5y ago
We don't live in a world without the vaccine, so I don't see the argument.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  A possible answer to your question of what we could do if we do not want to force people to get vaccinated is the same as what we could do if people could not be vaccinated. You said it was your ‘genuine question’. So I’m not sure why you need to see the argument. It’s an answer to your question, not an argument.
  - detaro 5y ago
    So basically lockdown for all, because restricting the rights of everybody is better than restricting the rights of some. Good luck convincing the courts that that's the minimal necessary restriction.
    - tinus_hn 5y ago
      There are more options than ‘lockdown for all’, but yes, it would be one of the things you could do if vaccinations were not available.
      - detaro 5y ago
        But vaccinations are available, so you likely can't do it legally.
        tinus_hn 5y ago
        That’s for the courts to decide. Is a lockdown not allowed because forcing people to vaccinate is an option? Or is forcing people to vaccinate not allowed because lockdown is an option?

musicale 5y ago

Does managing indoor humidity help? It seems to with other respiratory viruses.

yosito 5y ago
Yes! Indoor humidity helps in at least two ways: 1) Humidity prevents aerosol transmission 2) Humidity helps the cillia in your airways function better and remove foreign particles, including viruses faster before they have a chance to infect you.

shoto_io 5y ago

Probably not much. All KPIs are heading down now anyways, just look into the RKI dashboard [1]. Doing a quick math exercise underscores this: 70% are vaccinated, 6 million had it (at least, the number is probably higher), so in total 80-85% of the population already had it or is vaccinated by now. Numbers should go down now from now, which they actually start to do, if you look in the dashboard. [1] https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Dez_2021/2021-12-02-de.pdf?__blob=publicationFile https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus...

yladiz 5y ago
It's not great, and I do wish that the current coalition had prepared a bit more for this winter, rather than assuming 1. enough people would get vaccinated, and 2. that it wouldn't come back seasonally like last year. They really should have prepared months ago. I can't think of a better alternative given the current situation if the end goal is to get people to reduce contact and get vaccinated, short of a full lockdown for everyone (which I think is a lot less preferable). Whether this form of lockdown will have any effect remains to be seen.
- shoto_io 5y ago
  It’s absurd to believe that this will actually do anything additional to reduce infections on the short term. People don’t get infected while shopping. This is just meant to pressure the unvaccinated to get vaccinated which might help next year. Unvaccinated people will just meet privately at home and get infected. It’s just the wrong move at the worst possible time.
  - kitkat_new 5y ago
    > Unvaccinated people will just meet privately at home and get infected. they are anyways
  - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
    > People don’t get infected while shopping. What's so special about shopping that it prevents transmission of a relatively communicable disease?

swader999 5y ago

Focus on early treatment. Drugs like ivermectin, hcq, fluvoxamine

stjohnswarts 5y ago
Ivermectin and hcq do nothing for covid. No idea what fluvoxamine is.
- swader999 5y ago
  I hope you or someone close to you never get as desperate as I was. Saved my life.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  It's an antidepressant. I don't think it has any effect on COVID, either proven or rumoured.
  - nradov 5y ago
    There have been several small studies which show fluvoxamine is an effective COVID-19 treatment. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=covid+fluvoxamine https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=covid+fluvoxamine Results are still somewhat preliminary and it isn't formally approved for that use but I know that many physicians are prescribing it off label and report positive results. The safety profile is good as a temporary acute treatment so there's little reason not to use it.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Huh I hadn't heard of that yet. I wonder if the same goes for other SSRIs. It's a pretty big class.

Apaec 5y ago

Control the media to stop the panic, that only worsens things with a nocebo effect. Gradually remove restrictions since numbers are going down anyways.