5 ms·

Code doesn't actively resist your attempts to improve it. Our broken institutions are fighting to protect their kingdom

notpachet 5y ago
> Code doesn't actively resist your attempts to improve it. Tell that to this Angular 1 app.
Juliate 5y ago
The "kingdom" as you say it, involves instutions AND people that depend on it, if only, by habit, but also by trust. Be these habit and trust be misplaced or not is not much relevant: a new system just does not have a hint of these either just because it's new.
dmitriid 5y ago
> Our broken institutions are fighting to protect their kingdom Three years ago I bought an apartment. I got a loan from a bank over internet and phone. The contract was three pages of clear Swedish that even I, with my rudimentary knowledge of i, could understand. The contract signing was intermediated by a person whose job is to make sure everything goes smoothly. In the end, all of the following was guaranteed: - I had the money - money was transfered into the other person's account - I was not a scammer - that person wasn't a scammer - I received actual physical keys to an actual physical apartment (and not to an non-existent address) (a bunch of other stuff) So, tell me. What exactly does your crypto improve?
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  That is an exceptionally well designed purchase process. In my case, I had to go through 3-4 months of wrangling banks and other paperwork. I still don't understand my mortgage contract fully. I just hope it doesn't have any "surprises" in it.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  It improves that process in a disintegrating third world country, which many of us may find ourselves in within our lifetimes.
  - bsagdiyev 5y ago
    No it doesn’t and no you won’t. Where is this fatalism coming from?
    - scubbo 5y ago
      Paying the barest amount of attention to the news and being repeatedly confronted with the myriad ways that once-first-world countries are crumbling.
  - kevingadd 5y ago
    How does it improve the process in a disintegrating third world country right now? Lay it out, which steps in the process does it improve or replace? Do you know anyone who's utilized it that way, or are there case studies?
  - WJW 5y ago
    That's nice and I hope it works out for them, given how difficult it can be to get physical objects properly tracked in a digital system when the people responsible for entering data into the system can be corrupt. But getting the third world digitized is the very opposite of the "very interesting innovation" that everyone else in this thread keeps referring to; it is just making some thing that already exists again. That is not innovation, that is an incremental improvement at best. For those of us living in prosperous Western countries (and let's not kid ourselves, that is at least 90% of HN), the biggest attraction of cryptocurrencies seems to be "if you buy this, it might be worth more in the future". Which is nice, but hardly innovative.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > It improves that process in a disintegrating third world country, A disintegrating third world country will not be able to enforce anything. So, you've transferred your money and got a key to a non-existent place. Good luck with your "improved process".
- moistrobot 5y ago
  I'm glad it went well for you :) All of those guarantees are under threat of legal punishment enforced through court systems. All of those guarantees are given to you based on good standing with various institutions. The bank, the intermediary, the seller. If you were a person who was not in good standing with a bank, but you still had the money, could you have completed the transaction? Technology has a trend of destroying middleman industries, as they don't provide value and take a portion of the proceeds for themselves. DeFi, in this case, is targeting the financial institutions because we now have technological means to replace banks and lenders. Does that mean this process is smooth? or ready for mass adoption? Not necessarily, but the destruction of banks by technology is inevitable. It's just a matter of when
  - soco 5y ago
    If I'm a person who has money but is in bad standing with the banks, maybe I shouldn't be able to do financial transactions at all. It's that, or I'm imagining the wrong reasons why a person with money would have trouble with banks.
    - moistrobot 5y ago
      Totally agree, as long as the reasons the banks have are valid. The problem is that that decision is made by people. Standards of conduct are not universal. What if political affiliation or COVID vaccination status affects your ability to transact with a bank, even though those things have nothing to do with buying or selling real estate
      - preseinger 5y ago
        It is I think vastly better for people to make those decisions than for them to be made by smart contract. The institutions we discuss now are at their core social systems.
        moistrobot 5y ago
        I think that's a totally valid opinion. The advantage to people is that they can more flexible. The disadvantage to people is that they can be more irrational.
- fsflover 5y ago
  Unfortunately very few people live in a democratic country with the rule of law like Sweden. For the rest, crypto can be a good place to keep their funds without the fear of losing.
  - preseinger 5y ago
    The overwhelming majority of people live in countries with representative government and functioning legal systems. Yes, the US and Russia and China and India and Brazil all meet this description. Why do you believe otherwise?
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > Unfortunately very few people live in a democratic country with the rule of law like Sweden. You mean, the absolute vast majority of people in this world live in contries with more-or-less functioning governments. Not perfect, but functioning. > or the rest, crypto can be a good place to keep their funds without the fear of losing. Ah yes. The only use case is hoarding. Even though I specifically provided a different case that doesn't involve hoarding.
- amelius 5y ago
  It doesn't always work out well for everybody. Check this out: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-59069662 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-59069662
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    The key is: it works well for most people. So, the question remains: What exactly does your crypto improve? And on top of that, in this case, how will it help with the stolen house in Luton?

> Code doesn't actively resist your attempts to improve it. Tell that to this Angular 1 app.

The "kingdom" as you say it, involves instutions AND people that depend on it, if only, by habit, but also by trust. Be these habit and trust be misplaced or not is not much relevant: a new system just does not have a hint of these either just because it's new.

dmitriid 5y ago

> Our broken institutions are fighting to protect their kingdom Three years ago I bought an apartment. I got a loan from a bank over internet and phone. The contract was three pages of clear Swedish that even I, with my rudimentary knowledge of i, could understand. The contract signing was intermediated by a person whose job is to make sure everything goes smoothly. In the end, all of the following was guaranteed: - I had the money - money was transfered into the other person's account - I was not a scammer - that person wasn't a scammer - I received actual physical keys to an actual physical apartment (and not to an non-existent address) (a bunch of other stuff) So, tell me. What exactly does your crypto improve?

selfhoster11 5y ago
That is an exceptionally well designed purchase process. In my case, I had to go through 3-4 months of wrangling banks and other paperwork. I still don't understand my mortgage contract fully. I just hope it doesn't have any "surprises" in it.
whatshisface 5y ago
It improves that process in a disintegrating third world country, which many of us may find ourselves in within our lifetimes.
- bsagdiyev 5y ago
  No it doesn’t and no you won’t. Where is this fatalism coming from?
  - scubbo 5y ago
    Paying the barest amount of attention to the news and being repeatedly confronted with the myriad ways that once-first-world countries are crumbling.
- kevingadd 5y ago
  How does it improve the process in a disintegrating third world country right now? Lay it out, which steps in the process does it improve or replace? Do you know anyone who's utilized it that way, or are there case studies?
- WJW 5y ago
  That's nice and I hope it works out for them, given how difficult it can be to get physical objects properly tracked in a digital system when the people responsible for entering data into the system can be corrupt. But getting the third world digitized is the very opposite of the "very interesting innovation" that everyone else in this thread keeps referring to; it is just making some thing that already exists again. That is not innovation, that is an incremental improvement at best. For those of us living in prosperous Western countries (and let's not kid ourselves, that is at least 90% of HN), the biggest attraction of cryptocurrencies seems to be "if you buy this, it might be worth more in the future". Which is nice, but hardly innovative.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > It improves that process in a disintegrating third world country, A disintegrating third world country will not be able to enforce anything. So, you've transferred your money and got a key to a non-existent place. Good luck with your "improved process".
moistrobot 5y ago
I'm glad it went well for you :) All of those guarantees are under threat of legal punishment enforced through court systems. All of those guarantees are given to you based on good standing with various institutions. The bank, the intermediary, the seller. If you were a person who was not in good standing with a bank, but you still had the money, could you have completed the transaction? Technology has a trend of destroying middleman industries, as they don't provide value and take a portion of the proceeds for themselves. DeFi, in this case, is targeting the financial institutions because we now have technological means to replace banks and lenders. Does that mean this process is smooth? or ready for mass adoption? Not necessarily, but the destruction of banks by technology is inevitable. It's just a matter of when
- soco 5y ago
  If I'm a person who has money but is in bad standing with the banks, maybe I shouldn't be able to do financial transactions at all. It's that, or I'm imagining the wrong reasons why a person with money would have trouble with banks.
  - moistrobot 5y ago
    Totally agree, as long as the reasons the banks have are valid. The problem is that that decision is made by people. Standards of conduct are not universal. What if political affiliation or COVID vaccination status affects your ability to transact with a bank, even though those things have nothing to do with buying or selling real estate
    - preseinger 5y ago
      It is I think vastly better for people to make those decisions than for them to be made by smart contract. The institutions we discuss now are at their core social systems.
      - moistrobot 5y ago
        I think that's a totally valid opinion. The advantage to people is that they can more flexible. The disadvantage to people is that they can be more irrational.
fsflover 5y ago
Unfortunately very few people live in a democratic country with the rule of law like Sweden. For the rest, crypto can be a good place to keep their funds without the fear of losing.
- preseinger 5y ago
  The overwhelming majority of people live in countries with representative government and functioning legal systems. Yes, the US and Russia and China and India and Brazil all meet this description. Why do you believe otherwise?
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Unfortunately very few people live in a democratic country with the rule of law like Sweden. You mean, the absolute vast majority of people in this world live in contries with more-or-less functioning governments. Not perfect, but functioning. > or the rest, crypto can be a good place to keep their funds without the fear of losing. Ah yes. The only use case is hoarding. Even though I specifically provided a different case that doesn't involve hoarding.
amelius 5y ago
It doesn't always work out well for everybody. Check this out: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-59069662 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-59069662
- dmitriid 5y ago
  The key is: it works well for most people. So, the question remains: What exactly does your crypto improve? And on top of that, in this case, how will it help with the stolen house in Luton?