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Being unvaccinated is a pre-existing condition. It should inform treatment strategies the same way other co-morbidities might. And since being vaccinated produc

Being unvaccinated is a pre-existing condition. It should inform treatment strategies the same way other co-morbidities might. And since being vaccinated produces better outcomes that result in a decrease in medical costs (which overwhelming evidence indicates it does), higher premiums for unvaccinated is a good idea. It's the best approach to encouraging vaccination, in fact. But the entire premise of raising premiums for unvaccinated people assumes people should bear any financial responsibility for their own healthcare (and consequently, any financial responsibility for their own health-related choices). But if unvaccinated people pay higher premiums, then that logic would follow that other pre-existing conditions might be met with increases premiums. And to continue the logic, some ethnic groups have higher incidences of certain diseases. Should they pay higher premiums or would that be branded discriminatory? And so politics enters the fray. And another good idea is crushed under the weight of vote-seeking, political correctness, and the desire to punish wrongthink.

hef19898 5y ago
No way that works in Germany, pre existing conditions are not a thing in public insurance. And don't want people to suffer because of this. We are having de facto triage already so, and any vaccination mandates wont come before March, so again min. 3 months to get people vaccinated afterwards. Well, at least the Stiko (the German body recommending vaccines) realized that their decisions were too late. Let's see if that changes now.
- trentnix 5y ago
  And don't want people to suffer because of this. I understand this line of thinking, but think it's flawed. You have to be okay with everyone else suffering instead (due to increases in their own healthcare costs to cover for those who use the healthcare system more) and you aren't able to use cost to influence better healthcare choices. There has to be a way to hold people accountable to the actual consequences of their own health choices while also being sensitive to those who are sick through no obvious fault of their own.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Oh, that other people are suffering is the frustrating part. And that the vaccination status apparently isn't playing a role during triage (actual triage not the postponing of planned surgeries) is something I don't really get. Well I get it, kind of. Still, I hoped it would be different.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Should we also hold people accountable for drinking alcohol? It's a leading cause of death and chronic disease. How about for eating too much sugar? Or engaging in high risk sports like boxing?
    - galaxyLogic 5y ago
      I think we should counter-balance that with people's right to privacy. Does anybody have the right to know if I'm eating too much candy or not? With Covid it's different because while I may die from too much sugar that will not kill anybody else. Whereas if I don't get vaccinated I'm putting other people at risk, I'm putting the whole society at risk, of spreading Covid and allowing Covid to mutate to new ever more dangerous variants. If Irefuse to take the Covid vaccination I am "aiding the enemy". Covid is the enemy. But alcohol maybe yes. Drinking and driving puts other people's lives at risk too. If you are convicted of drinking while driving I think your premiums should go up, I assume they do.
galaxyLogic 5y ago
There is the question of fairness, should we pay more because people who refuse to get vaccinated fill the hospitals? But there's also another factor, such a policy would give people even more incentives to get vaccinated. Isn't it already the case that if you don't smoke you get lower premiums?
- trentnix 5y ago
  There is the question of fairness, should we pay more because people who refuse to get vaccinated fill the hospitals? Fairness doesn't even seem to be in the political lexicon anymore. It has been replaced with equity, which justifies unfairness if it results in preferred political outcomes.
TomSwirly 5y ago
> Being unvaccinated is a pre-existing condition. A "pre-existing condition" is not a medical term. It is a term used only in US health insurance. To 95% of the world, it has no meaning. > It should inform treatment strategies the same way other co-morbidities might. Because...? Hospitals in the Netherlands, where I live, have stopped a lot of surgeries to deal with our fifth wave of COVID, almost entirely amongst the deliberately unvaccinated. Innocent people will die so that guilty people can get the treatment for the disease that they spread through deliberate and wanton negligence. It's almost 2022. Soon it will be two years of this. If we as a group took vaccination and masking seriously, and if we in the developed world had worked hard on getting the rest of the world vaccinated, COVID would be gone, but it's as here as it ever was. If you aren't masking and you aren't getting vaccinated and you live in a developed country, then you are doing it deliberately, you are costing everyone else tremendously, and the rest of the world shouldn't be forced to carry the burden for your decision to be antisocial, irrational and to steal from the health of the group at no objective benefit for yourself.
- nradov 5y ago
  I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, however COVID will never be gone. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
- trentnix 5y ago
  > A "pre-existing condition" is not a medical term. It is a term used only in US health insurance. To 95% of the world, it has no meaning. You're being pedantic. The point was that outcomes are poorer for the unvaccinated, just like outcomes are poorer for those with high blood pressure or with autoimmune deficiencies. It is to everyone's benefit to keep those people out of ICU and long-term hospital stays, so they should be treated aggressively as a result. > If you aren't masking and you aren't getting vaccinated and you live in a developed country, then you are doing it deliberately, you are costing everyone else tremendously, and the rest of the world shouldn't be forced to carry the burden for your decision to be antisocial, irrational and to steal from the health of the group at no objective benefit for yourself. Millions have had Covid without resulting in serious illness. And having had Covid is likely to be more effective protection than the vaccine. I'm vaccinated. I'm pro-vaccine. But this line of thinking that "no vaccine = evil" is unscientific and toxic. Reality never fits the narrative.

hef19898 5y ago

No way that works in Germany, pre existing conditions are not a thing in public insurance. And don't want people to suffer because of this. We are having de facto triage already so, and any vaccination mandates wont come before March, so again min. 3 months to get people vaccinated afterwards. Well, at least the Stiko (the German body recommending vaccines) realized that their decisions were too late. Let's see if that changes now.

trentnix 5y ago
And don't want people to suffer because of this. I understand this line of thinking, but think it's flawed. You have to be okay with everyone else suffering instead (due to increases in their own healthcare costs to cover for those who use the healthcare system more) and you aren't able to use cost to influence better healthcare choices. There has to be a way to hold people accountable to the actual consequences of their own health choices while also being sensitive to those who are sick through no obvious fault of their own.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Oh, that other people are suffering is the frustrating part. And that the vaccination status apparently isn't playing a role during triage (actual triage not the postponing of planned surgeries) is something I don't really get. Well I get it, kind of. Still, I hoped it would be different.
- nradov 5y ago
  Should we also hold people accountable for drinking alcohol? It's a leading cause of death and chronic disease. How about for eating too much sugar? Or engaging in high risk sports like boxing?
  - galaxyLogic 5y ago
    I think we should counter-balance that with people's right to privacy. Does anybody have the right to know if I'm eating too much candy or not? With Covid it's different because while I may die from too much sugar that will not kill anybody else. Whereas if I don't get vaccinated I'm putting other people at risk, I'm putting the whole society at risk, of spreading Covid and allowing Covid to mutate to new ever more dangerous variants. If Irefuse to take the Covid vaccination I am "aiding the enemy". Covid is the enemy. But alcohol maybe yes. Drinking and driving puts other people's lives at risk too. If you are convicted of drinking while driving I think your premiums should go up, I assume they do.

galaxyLogic 5y ago

There is the question of fairness, should we pay more because people who refuse to get vaccinated fill the hospitals? But there's also another factor, such a policy would give people even more incentives to get vaccinated. Isn't it already the case that if you don't smoke you get lower premiums?

trentnix 5y ago
There is the question of fairness, should we pay more because people who refuse to get vaccinated fill the hospitals? Fairness doesn't even seem to be in the political lexicon anymore. It has been replaced with equity, which justifies unfairness if it results in preferred political outcomes.

TomSwirly 5y ago

> Being unvaccinated is a pre-existing condition. A "pre-existing condition" is not a medical term. It is a term used only in US health insurance. To 95% of the world, it has no meaning. > It should inform treatment strategies the same way other co-morbidities might. Because...? Hospitals in the Netherlands, where I live, have stopped a lot of surgeries to deal with our fifth wave of COVID, almost entirely amongst the deliberately unvaccinated. Innocent people will die so that guilty people can get the treatment for the disease that they spread through deliberate and wanton negligence. It's almost 2022. Soon it will be two years of this. If we as a group took vaccination and masking seriously, and if we in the developed world had worked hard on getting the rest of the world vaccinated, COVID would be gone, but it's as here as it ever was. If you aren't masking and you aren't getting vaccinated and you live in a developed country, then you are doing it deliberately, you are costing everyone else tremendously, and the rest of the world shouldn't be forced to carry the burden for your decision to be antisocial, irrational and to steal from the health of the group at no objective benefit for yourself.

nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, however COVID will never be gone. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
trentnix 5y ago
> A "pre-existing condition" is not a medical term. It is a term used only in US health insurance. To 95% of the world, it has no meaning. You're being pedantic. The point was that outcomes are poorer for the unvaccinated, just like outcomes are poorer for those with high blood pressure or with autoimmune deficiencies. It is to everyone's benefit to keep those people out of ICU and long-term hospital stays, so they should be treated aggressively as a result. > If you aren't masking and you aren't getting vaccinated and you live in a developed country, then you are doing it deliberately, you are costing everyone else tremendously, and the rest of the world shouldn't be forced to carry the burden for your decision to be antisocial, irrational and to steal from the health of the group at no objective benefit for yourself. Millions have had Covid without resulting in serious illness. And having had Covid is likely to be more effective protection than the vaccine. I'm vaccinated. I'm pro-vaccine. But this line of thinking that "no vaccine = evil" is unscientific and toxic. Reality never fits the narrative.