5 ms·

> in the long run that won't save anyone > eventually I don't know exactly about the US but in NL that is precisely the sticking point. It doesn't matter tha

> in the long run that won't save anyone > eventually I don't know exactly about the US but in NL that is precisely the sticking point. It doesn't matter that everyone will get it, it matters when everybody gets it because we don't have the ICU capacity to treat everyone at the same time (+ regular ICU patients and overhead for scheduled surgeries)

hef19898 5y ago
In Germany, a country with among the highest rate of ICU beds per capita, we reached a point where scheduled surgeries for cancer patient are delayed because of this. Yet alone to speak about emergencies, in some regions it really is a bad time to have a heart attack or a stroke. Or a serious accident. Which is why I am so frustrated with people refusing to be vaccinated and with our politicians that ignored all warning over a calm summer, again after they did the same ting in 2020. Because reasonable, innocent people are suffering now. Sometimes I wished voluntarily unvaccinated people would be consequent enough to refuse treatment.
- galaxyLogic 5y ago
  I think unvaccinated people's healthcare premiums should simply go up.
  - trentnix 5y ago
    Being unvaccinated is a pre-existing condition. It should inform treatment strategies the same way other co-morbidities might. And since being vaccinated produces better outcomes that result in a decrease in medical costs (which overwhelming evidence indicates it does), higher premiums for unvaccinated is a good idea. It's the best approach to encouraging vaccination, in fact. But the entire premise of raising premiums for unvaccinated people assumes people should bear any financial responsibility for their own healthcare (and consequently, any financial responsibility for their own health-related choices). But if unvaccinated people pay higher premiums, then that logic would follow that other pre-existing conditions might be met with increases premiums. And to continue the logic, some ethnic groups have higher incidences of certain diseases. Should they pay higher premiums or would that be branded discriminatory? And so politics enters the fray. And another good idea is crushed under the weight of vote-seeking, political correctness, and the desire to punish wrongthink.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      No way that works in Germany, pre existing conditions are not a thing in public insurance. And don't want people to suffer because of this. We are having de facto triage already so, and any vaccination mandates wont come before March, so again min. 3 months to get people vaccinated afterwards. Well, at least the Stiko (the German body recommending vaccines) realized that their decisions were too late. Let's see if that changes now.
      - trentnix 5y ago
        And don't want people to suffer because of this. I understand this line of thinking, but think it's flawed. You have to be okay with everyone else suffering instead (due to increases in their own healthcare costs to cover for those who use the healthcare system more) and you aren't able to use cost to influence better healthcare choices. There has to be a way to hold people accountable to the actual consequences of their own health choices while also being sensitive to those who are sick through no obvious fault of their own.
        hef19898 5y ago
        Oh, that other people are suffering is the frustrating part. And that the vaccination status apparently isn't playing a role during triage (actual triage not the postponing of planned surgeries) is something I don't really get. Well I get it, kind of. Still, I hoped it would be different.
        nradov 5y ago
        Should we also hold people accountable for drinking alcohol? It's a leading cause of death and chronic disease. How about for eating too much sugar? Or engaging in high risk sports like boxing?
        galaxyLogic 5y ago
        I think we should counter-balance that with people's right to privacy. Does anybody have the right to know if I'm eating too much candy or not? With Covid it's different because while I may die from too much sugar that will not kill anybody else. Whereas if I don't get vaccinated I'm putting other people at risk, I'm putting the whole society at risk, of spreading Covid and allowing Covid to mutate to new ever more dangerous variants. If Irefuse to take the Covid vaccination I am "aiding the enemy". Covid is the enemy. But alcohol maybe yes. Drinking and driving puts other people's lives at risk too. If you are convicted of drinking while driving I think your premiums should go up, I assume they do.
galaxyLogic 5y ago
Very good point. Slow the spread. If you slow it to near zero we are well off. This reminds me of someone telling me "If even vaccinated people can get Covid what's the point of me getting vaccinated?" The answer is simple but perhaps subtle and may be hard for some people to understand and accept: To lower the risk. You can't fully eliminate the risk but you can and should lower the risk as much as is easily possible. There are 777k Covid deaths in the US now and I wonder why media doesn't tell us that number every day. I guess many people don't want to hear it. https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+people+have+died+from+covid+in+us&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS875US875&oq=how+many+people+have+died+from+covid+in+US&aqs=chrome.0.0i512l2.7703j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+people+have+died+fr...
- revax 5y ago
  Don't forget that the vaccine also lower the risk of severe form of Covid.

hef19898 5y ago

In Germany, a country with among the highest rate of ICU beds per capita, we reached a point where scheduled surgeries for cancer patient are delayed because of this. Yet alone to speak about emergencies, in some regions it really is a bad time to have a heart attack or a stroke. Or a serious accident. Which is why I am so frustrated with people refusing to be vaccinated and with our politicians that ignored all warning over a calm summer, again after they did the same ting in 2020. Because reasonable, innocent people are suffering now. Sometimes I wished voluntarily unvaccinated people would be consequent enough to refuse treatment.

galaxyLogic 5y ago
I think unvaccinated people's healthcare premiums should simply go up.
- trentnix 5y ago
  Being unvaccinated is a pre-existing condition. It should inform treatment strategies the same way other co-morbidities might. And since being vaccinated produces better outcomes that result in a decrease in medical costs (which overwhelming evidence indicates it does), higher premiums for unvaccinated is a good idea. It's the best approach to encouraging vaccination, in fact. But the entire premise of raising premiums for unvaccinated people assumes people should bear any financial responsibility for their own healthcare (and consequently, any financial responsibility for their own health-related choices). But if unvaccinated people pay higher premiums, then that logic would follow that other pre-existing conditions might be met with increases premiums. And to continue the logic, some ethnic groups have higher incidences of certain diseases. Should they pay higher premiums or would that be branded discriminatory? And so politics enters the fray. And another good idea is crushed under the weight of vote-seeking, political correctness, and the desire to punish wrongthink.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    No way that works in Germany, pre existing conditions are not a thing in public insurance. And don't want people to suffer because of this. We are having de facto triage already so, and any vaccination mandates wont come before March, so again min. 3 months to get people vaccinated afterwards. Well, at least the Stiko (the German body recommending vaccines) realized that their decisions were too late. Let's see if that changes now.
    - trentnix 5y ago
      And don't want people to suffer because of this. I understand this line of thinking, but think it's flawed. You have to be okay with everyone else suffering instead (due to increases in their own healthcare costs to cover for those who use the healthcare system more) and you aren't able to use cost to influence better healthcare choices. There has to be a way to hold people accountable to the actual consequences of their own health choices while also being sensitive to those who are sick through no obvious fault of their own.
      - hef19898 5y ago
        Oh, that other people are suffering is the frustrating part. And that the vaccination status apparently isn't playing a role during triage (actual triage not the postponing of planned surgeries) is something I don't really get. Well I get it, kind of. Still, I hoped it would be different.
      - nradov 5y ago
        Should we also hold people accountable for drinking alcohol? It's a leading cause of death and chronic disease. How about for eating too much sugar? Or engaging in high risk sports like boxing?
        galaxyLogic 5y ago
        I think we should counter-balance that with people's right to privacy. Does anybody have the right to know if I'm eating too much candy or not? With Covid it's different because while I may die from too much sugar that will not kill anybody else. Whereas if I don't get vaccinated I'm putting other people at risk, I'm putting the whole society at risk, of spreading Covid and allowing Covid to mutate to new ever more dangerous variants. If Irefuse to take the Covid vaccination I am "aiding the enemy". Covid is the enemy. But alcohol maybe yes. Drinking and driving puts other people's lives at risk too. If you are convicted of drinking while driving I think your premiums should go up, I assume they do.

galaxyLogic 5y ago

Very good point. Slow the spread. If you slow it to near zero we are well off. This reminds me of someone telling me "If even vaccinated people can get Covid what's the point of me getting vaccinated?" The answer is simple but perhaps subtle and may be hard for some people to understand and accept: To lower the risk. You can't fully eliminate the risk but you can and should lower the risk as much as is easily possible. There are 777k Covid deaths in the US now and I wonder why media doesn't tell us that number every day. I guess many people don't want to hear it. https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+people+have+died+from+covid+in+us&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS875US875&oq=how+many+people+have+died+from+covid+in+US&aqs=chrome.0.0i512l2.7703j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+people+have+died+fr...

revax 5y ago
Don't forget that the vaccine also lower the risk of severe form of Covid.