3 ms·

Before I ditched Windows a couple of years ago, I was able to experience first hand how bloated and slow was the software that Microsoft rewrote in C#, so I kin

by blub 5y ago

Before I ditched Windows a couple of years ago, I was able to experience first hand how bloated and slow was the software that Microsoft rewrote in C#, so I kind of understand why such rewrites were being sabotaged. If by some minor miracle a C# or Java GUI app is not slow, then it will use a ton of memory. A whole OS of such apps would be a nightmare.

davedx 5y ago
You literally mention Java GUI apps in response to a post that calls out Android, a mobile OS and application ecosystem implemented in Java. The languages are not the issue.
- blub 5y ago
  It took Google more than a decade of trying and a VM rewrite to get close to the perceived performance of iOS. And anything performance intensive was done in the NDK anyway. All of this because of Java.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Indeed, the big difference is that Google was willing to put money on the table to make it work. Those improvements are exactly what WinDev sabotaged in regards to Windows. Also in case you have forgotten, Objective-C and Swift are also managed languages, check chapter 5 of Garbage Collection Handbook, or any other CS reference in automatic memory management algorithms.
  - vips7L 5y ago
    Android is not Java.
ptx 5y ago
The new modern/UWP apps in Windows 10, like the calculator and start menu, are written in C++, aren't they? They manage to be horrendously slow and bloated without C#, so maybe C# isn't the problem.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  They are, UWP is basically another take on what was being discussed before .NET as COM evolution, and Longhorn's failure has given them the wind to pursue it as Windows foundation. So since Vista all major Windows APIs are COM based, not always surfaced to .NET, and we are expected to just go through books like ".NET and COM: The Complete Interoperability Guide" and do the needful ourselves. WinRT as introduced in Windows 8 was then the full reboot, with .NET metadata taking over TLB files (COM type libraries) and introducing a new base interface IInspectable. So the long term vision pursued by Synofsky, was that .NET Native and C++/CX would take over with COM fully replacing .NET. Naturally it all failed down during the borked execution, and now you still have devs pushing for C++/WinRT, the C++/CX replacement, with ATL like tooling as "modern". Maybe it is modern given the tools that they are used at WinDev, I guess. Ars even has a nice article how this reboot took place, https://arstechnica.com/features/2012/10/windows-8-and-winrt-everything-old-is-new-again/ https://arstechnica.com/features/2012/10/windows-8-and-winrt...
- flohofwoe 5y ago
  It's quite simple really. Bad programmers (or good programmers in bad environments) are able to write slow code in any language, and the current Windows Desktop team seems to be an example of that.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    When people write worse C++ code than naive C# performs, it is really bad.
pjmlp 5y ago
As proven by Midori (used to power Asian bing while in development), Android, ChromeOS, iOS/iPad OS, among others, it is possible when everyone works together for a common goal instead of sabotaging others work.

by blub 5y ago

davedx 5y ago

You literally mention Java GUI apps in response to a post that calls out Android, a mobile OS and application ecosystem implemented in Java. The languages are not the issue.

blub 5y ago
It took Google more than a decade of trying and a VM rewrite to get close to the perceived performance of iOS. And anything performance intensive was done in the NDK anyway. All of this because of Java.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Indeed, the big difference is that Google was willing to put money on the table to make it work. Those improvements are exactly what WinDev sabotaged in regards to Windows. Also in case you have forgotten, Objective-C and Swift are also managed languages, check chapter 5 of Garbage Collection Handbook, or any other CS reference in automatic memory management algorithms.
- vips7L 5y ago
  Android is not Java.

ptx 5y ago

The new modern/UWP apps in Windows 10, like the calculator and start menu, are written in C++, aren't they? They manage to be horrendously slow and bloated without C#, so maybe C# isn't the problem.

pjmlp 5y ago
They are, UWP is basically another take on what was being discussed before .NET as COM evolution, and Longhorn's failure has given them the wind to pursue it as Windows foundation. So since Vista all major Windows APIs are COM based, not always surfaced to .NET, and we are expected to just go through books like ".NET and COM: The Complete Interoperability Guide" and do the needful ourselves. WinRT as introduced in Windows 8 was then the full reboot, with .NET metadata taking over TLB files (COM type libraries) and introducing a new base interface IInspectable. So the long term vision pursued by Synofsky, was that .NET Native and C++/CX would take over with COM fully replacing .NET. Naturally it all failed down during the borked execution, and now you still have devs pushing for C++/WinRT, the C++/CX replacement, with ATL like tooling as "modern". Maybe it is modern given the tools that they are used at WinDev, I guess. Ars even has a nice article how this reboot took place, https://arstechnica.com/features/2012/10/windows-8-and-winrt-everything-old-is-new-again/ https://arstechnica.com/features/2012/10/windows-8-and-winrt...
flohofwoe 5y ago
It's quite simple really. Bad programmers (or good programmers in bad environments) are able to write slow code in any language, and the current Windows Desktop team seems to be an example of that.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  When people write worse C++ code than naive C# performs, it is really bad.

pjmlp 5y ago

As proven by Midori (used to power Asian bing while in development), Android, ChromeOS, iOS/iPad OS, among others, it is possible when everyone works together for a common goal instead of sabotaging others work.