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I used to hold similar views before life-changing events that now have me firmly on the side of BTC and crypto in general. You can't convince them - in their m

I used to hold similar views before life-changing events that now have me firmly on the side of BTC and crypto in general. You can't convince them - in their mind, you are part of the "scam", and hence not trustworthy. No point in debating, they will buy in when it clicks for them.

suriyaG 5y ago
I'd love to hear the life-changing events, if possible. Because I've been trying to convince myself that BTC might be good. But I really couldn't find a reason. The "pump and dump" thing is the one that makes most sense right now. I'm open to contrarian ideas.
- stann 5y ago
  Some things are a little more appealing when you are in a country without a competent Federal Reserve
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > Some things are a little more appealing when you are in a country without a competent Federal Reserve Why bother with Bitcoin, when you can just use money from a country with a competent Federal Reserve? IIRC many countries have "dollarized" (either de jure or de facto).
    - bradwood 5y ago
      Simple: there is no country with a competent Federal Reserve (Central Bank)
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > Simple: there is no country with a competent Federal Reserve (Central Bank) Eh, that's pretty obviously untrue under any reasonable definition of "competent Federal Reserve." Now, there are definitely unreasonable an/or extreme ideological definitions under which you could make such a statement (e.g. the most reasonable of these are monomanically overoptimizing to one metric), but those definitions are irrelevant and can be ignored.
        bradwood 5y ago
        > Eh, that's pretty obviously untrue under any reasonable definition of "competent Federal Reserve" It's not obvious. Is any central bank that debases currency through money printing without some kind of fixed peg/ratio to a scarce asset competent? No. This is self-evidently true as, by doing so, they are perniciously taxing the savings of the poor in order to feather the nests of the (asset-)rich. There is no avoiding the truth of this inviolable fact as Cantillion himself described many years ago.
        tablespoon 5y ago
        > Is any central bank that debases currency through money printing without some kind of fixed peg/ratio to a scarce asset competent? You're... >> monomanically overoptimizing to one metric As long as they do the debasing competently, as in the currency is able to sustain a healthy economy, then they're a competent central bank. Bitcoin could never sustain a healthy economy, for instance, because it strongly promotes hoarding and speculation.
        bradwood 5y ago
        > As long as they do the debasing competently... This is a contradiction in terms... Bitcoin promotes hoarding no more than gold does. And speculation no more than FX or commodities trading does. If a payment currency was pegged to bitcoin and the backing ratio remained fixed things would be fine like they were when we had the gold standard or even the later USD reserve currency standard when the USD was backed by gold. However history had shown that these arrangements did not hold as central bankers simply couldn't resist firing up the printer and breaking the peg with the scarce backing asset. Political pressures, wars, whatever the reason. Every peg was broken. Human greed, misplaced albeit well-intentioned mistakes, and simple human fallibility will continue to tempt even the most honourable people close to the money spigot. It's happened throughout the ages and human nature will not change in this regard. Bitcoin _algorithmically_ prevents this debasement and so it is literally the perfect base monetary asset. No one can fuck with it.
        5y ago
    - nfin 5y ago
      maybe because the country with the FED can print new dollars and spend it on stuff they like (infrastructure bill, paying back debt, …) while such dollarized countries, (beside yes the short term stable currency) just see medium-long term inflation (without the aforementioned benefit the dollarizing country gets). Google for: „cantillon effect“ (also accounts for inequalities inside one country like the US)
- divs1210 5y ago
  Like I said, I don't try to convince people to buy Bitcoin, because I remember how I used to respond to people talking about it. I would mock them, call it a ponzi scheme, call them shills, etc. I think Satoshi did it right. He said - > If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry. He said this when Bitoin was still extremely niche and inexpensive. But because you asked, I'm going to tell you what the personal event taught me - people are irrational. Watch "Gods Must be Crazy" and try to understand the allegory of the bottle and what effect it has on the tribe. That's what Bitcoin has achieved in cyberspace.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    Full on cultist talk. Including "irrefutable" quotes from the founder of the cult. Allegories. "Personal events that changed my life".
    - MrMan 5y ago
      I think those events probably had something to do with getting rich
  - imtringued 5y ago
    The fact that nobody adopted Freicoin is a sign that there is nothing of substance in the cryptocurrency space. Freicoin is Bitcoin without the speculation. Freicoin can only be used as a medium of exchange. It's far more likely that in 50 years we will see negative interest rates on cash and thereby complete abolishment of the business cycle, involuntary unemployment and growth dependence than a move back to a currency designed to maintain dynasties.
  - raydev 5y ago
    That's a lot of words to avoid answering the question.
arcticbull 5y ago
> No point in debating, they will buy in when it clicks for them. Sounds like Herbalife to me.
- throwaway248329 5y ago
  The only way WikiLeaks could accept donations when they were cut off from traditional finance. Yup, sounds like Herbalife.
imtringued 5y ago
>No point in debating, they will buy in when it clicks for them. Yeah, it didn't take long for the aristocracy to click that owning land and passing it onto their heirs for all eternity is good for humanity and the landless peasants are just jealous that they can't abuse their own landless peasants.
- throwaway248329 5y ago
  Bitcoin is the most egalitarian money ever created. Nobody will ever refuse to sell you Bitcoin because you're a "peasant". And comparing money with land is also incorrect - having Bitcoins in a wallet that you're never going to spend is as useful as having no Bitcoins at all. Unlike land, where you can live, extract resources, grow food, etc.

suriyaG 5y ago

I'd love to hear the life-changing events, if possible. Because I've been trying to convince myself that BTC might be good. But I really couldn't find a reason. The "pump and dump" thing is the one that makes most sense right now. I'm open to contrarian ideas.

stann 5y ago
Some things are a little more appealing when you are in a country without a competent Federal Reserve
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Some things are a little more appealing when you are in a country without a competent Federal Reserve Why bother with Bitcoin, when you can just use money from a country with a competent Federal Reserve? IIRC many countries have "dollarized" (either de jure or de facto).
  - bradwood 5y ago
    Simple: there is no country with a competent Federal Reserve (Central Bank)
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > Simple: there is no country with a competent Federal Reserve (Central Bank) Eh, that's pretty obviously untrue under any reasonable definition of "competent Federal Reserve." Now, there are definitely unreasonable an/or extreme ideological definitions under which you could make such a statement (e.g. the most reasonable of these are monomanically overoptimizing to one metric), but those definitions are irrelevant and can be ignored.
      - bradwood 5y ago
        > Eh, that's pretty obviously untrue under any reasonable definition of "competent Federal Reserve" It's not obvious. Is any central bank that debases currency through money printing without some kind of fixed peg/ratio to a scarce asset competent? No. This is self-evidently true as, by doing so, they are perniciously taxing the savings of the poor in order to feather the nests of the (asset-)rich. There is no avoiding the truth of this inviolable fact as Cantillion himself described many years ago.
        tablespoon 5y ago
        > Is any central bank that debases currency through money printing without some kind of fixed peg/ratio to a scarce asset competent? You're... >> monomanically overoptimizing to one metric As long as they do the debasing competently, as in the currency is able to sustain a healthy economy, then they're a competent central bank. Bitcoin could never sustain a healthy economy, for instance, because it strongly promotes hoarding and speculation.
        bradwood 5y ago
        > As long as they do the debasing competently... This is a contradiction in terms... Bitcoin promotes hoarding no more than gold does. And speculation no more than FX or commodities trading does. If a payment currency was pegged to bitcoin and the backing ratio remained fixed things would be fine like they were when we had the gold standard or even the later USD reserve currency standard when the USD was backed by gold. However history had shown that these arrangements did not hold as central bankers simply couldn't resist firing up the printer and breaking the peg with the scarce backing asset. Political pressures, wars, whatever the reason. Every peg was broken. Human greed, misplaced albeit well-intentioned mistakes, and simple human fallibility will continue to tempt even the most honourable people close to the money spigot. It's happened throughout the ages and human nature will not change in this regard. Bitcoin _algorithmically_ prevents this debasement and so it is literally the perfect base monetary asset. No one can fuck with it.
        5y ago
  - nfin 5y ago
    maybe because the country with the FED can print new dollars and spend it on stuff they like (infrastructure bill, paying back debt, …) while such dollarized countries, (beside yes the short term stable currency) just see medium-long term inflation (without the aforementioned benefit the dollarizing country gets). Google for: „cantillon effect“ (also accounts for inequalities inside one country like the US)
divs1210 5y ago
Like I said, I don't try to convince people to buy Bitcoin, because I remember how I used to respond to people talking about it. I would mock them, call it a ponzi scheme, call them shills, etc. I think Satoshi did it right. He said - > If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry. He said this when Bitoin was still extremely niche and inexpensive. But because you asked, I'm going to tell you what the personal event taught me - people are irrational. Watch "Gods Must be Crazy" and try to understand the allegory of the bottle and what effect it has on the tribe. That's what Bitcoin has achieved in cyberspace.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  Full on cultist talk. Including "irrefutable" quotes from the founder of the cult. Allegories. "Personal events that changed my life".
  - MrMan 5y ago
    I think those events probably had something to do with getting rich
- imtringued 5y ago
  The fact that nobody adopted Freicoin is a sign that there is nothing of substance in the cryptocurrency space. Freicoin is Bitcoin without the speculation. Freicoin can only be used as a medium of exchange. It's far more likely that in 50 years we will see negative interest rates on cash and thereby complete abolishment of the business cycle, involuntary unemployment and growth dependence than a move back to a currency designed to maintain dynasties.
- raydev 5y ago
  That's a lot of words to avoid answering the question.

arcticbull 5y ago

> No point in debating, they will buy in when it clicks for them. Sounds like Herbalife to me.

throwaway248329 5y ago
The only way WikiLeaks could accept donations when they were cut off from traditional finance. Yup, sounds like Herbalife.

imtringued 5y ago

>No point in debating, they will buy in when it clicks for them. Yeah, it didn't take long for the aristocracy to click that owning land and passing it onto their heirs for all eternity is good for humanity and the landless peasants are just jealous that they can't abuse their own landless peasants.

throwaway248329 5y ago
Bitcoin is the most egalitarian money ever created. Nobody will ever refuse to sell you Bitcoin because you're a "peasant". And comparing money with land is also incorrect - having Bitcoins in a wallet that you're never going to spend is as useful as having no Bitcoins at all. Unlike land, where you can live, extract resources, grow food, etc.