6 ms·

It's now officially illegal in Ontario for your boss to bug you after-hours

59 points by colinprince 5y ago

ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago
Super well done. Ban the use of non-compete agreements that prevent people from exploring other work opportunities in order to make it easier for workers to advance in their careers. This should be the norm everywhere.
- Manouchehri 5y ago
  Even before this law, non-competes in Ontario were mostly an intimidation tactic. I'm not entirely sure if this change does anything, since it appears that employers can still put in a non-compete agreement (which is void, but still works as an intimidation tactic). The only thing here that I can see the benefit of, is that the news coverage of non-competes being void, will make more employees aware that they're void.
tomashertus 5y ago
Awesome! I can't wait when it will be officially illegal to work.
dr-detroit 5y ago
Cool maybe I should move there lets just see... average salary Ontario canada $ 52,260 in monopoly money $40,866.27 in petrobux... uhhhh, no.
legerdemain 5y ago
Unintended consequences in 3... 2... 1... In general, legislation is a terrible solution where simple personal responsibility, team culture, and "voting with your feet" work best. In before Ontario has a net outflow of devs to places that don't micromanage what kinds of messages I can send to my employees and at what hour. Some of the closest bonds I've built with other engineers happened at 5AM on a Monday morning because we need to debug a server failure live in prod. All hands on deck! Raise the hacker flag and pass out the RedBull! Tallyho!
- robomc 5y ago
  If you need engineers to respond to server issues at 5am you can and should be paying them to be on call, and then paying them on top of that when an incident occurs. I don't think anything in this law (which doesn't seem to even resemble the headline of this article tbh) would prevent that.
  - skyde 5y ago
    100 % agree Should be extra pay just for the stress of being on call and not allowed to go make plan for your weekend (movie, camping …) And some extra cash for each call you received
  - CommanderData 5y ago
    Legislation here is great and I welcome it.
- malermeister 5y ago
  > Some of the closest bonds I've built with other engineers happened at 5AM on a Monday morning because we need to debug a server failure live in prod. All hands on deck! Raise the hacker flag and pass out the RedBull! See, this is exactly the toxic work culture this is preventing. I don't want to be working at 5AM on a monday morning, and I don't want coworkers to do so either, creating cultural pressure I do. There shouldn't be "personal responsibility" when it comes to workers rights and (self-)exploitation.
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    What in the world is "self-exploitation"? More woke college student hooey?
    - malermeister 5y ago
      Self-exploitation is an ideological control mechanism of the bourgeoisie in modern capitalism, where, instead of outright coercion, more insidious mechanisms are used to extract surplus value from labor. By activating the worker's will to generate value and "empowering" them to partake in "hustle culture", they create a system in which they can seize surplus value while the subject isn't even aware of their own exploitation. (your comments are a prime example :)) See also the Gramscian notion of cultural hegemony for more details on the mechanisms at play here.
dionidium 5y ago
Can an employee opt-out? I don't mind when my boss contacts me after hours. I'm happy to jump on a serious issue in a timely manner, when needed. My boss has never abused this willingness and if he did I'd be happy to have a conversation with him about it myself. I don't need anybody else to intervene on my behalf.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  > Can an employee opt-out? I am curious to know this for a different reason: if opt-out is possible, it will become a standard term in all employment contracts from now on, so this law might as well not exist. We know all too well from the cookie law that a law with opt-out turns completely useless before the ink is even dry.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  I agree, I don't mind getting contacted after hours
- Daishiman 5y ago
  You can opt out in the same way that everyone opts out of legal protections: by doing whatever you want and not being a snitch about it. It works great when everyone's buddy-buddy and there's trust. It also gives you great leverage when things go south.
- kelnos 5y ago
  I hope not. Then "opting out" (wink wink) will become the standard, and employers won't hire you unless you "opt out".
- strathmeyer 5y ago
  Your employer can opt-out by paying you.
- malermeister 5y ago
  Other employees probably don't want you to be contacted after hours, as it sets the expectation that it's okay to contact them too. This is to protect them, not you.
hbrav 5y ago
The part about banning non-compete agreements is promising, but I would suggest that anyone in Ontario check very carefully before assuming this applies to them. Ontario has previously exempted large classes of people from certain employment protections, including "IT professionals". https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules/government-employees-and-professionals https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptio...
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  Honestly, if your jurisdiction doesn't have the same non-compete laws as in California, that's a red flag.
robomc 5y ago
Read the actual law guys, it's nothing like that headline. https://www.ola.org/sites/default/files/node-files/bill/document/pdf/2021/2021-10/b027_e.pdf https://www.ola.org/sites/default/files/node-files/bill/docu...
- colinprince 5y ago
  I can see on page 3: "[..] defined to mean not engaging in work-related communications [..] so as to be free from the performance of work." The intention is there, are you saying it does not say it clearly?
  - robomc 5y ago
    It says they need to have a policy. It doesn't say what the policy has to be, what the punishments are for breaching it, what exceptions could be allowed, who signs off on the policy etc. It also only applies for larger organisations. That's a long way from "it's illegal for your company to contact you out of hours".
  - skyde 5y ago
    is a pager from an automated system that detect the server are in fire part of « engaging in communication « ?
skyde 5y ago
as a backend engineer i am on call 24/7 .. How do they define « after hour »

59 points by colinprince 5y ago

Super well done. Ban the use of non-compete agreements that prevent people from exploring other work opportunities in order to make it easier for workers to advance in their careers. This should be the norm everywhere.

Manouchehri 5y ago
Even before this law, non-competes in Ontario were mostly an intimidation tactic. I'm not entirely sure if this change does anything, since it appears that employers can still put in a non-compete agreement (which is void, but still works as an intimidation tactic). The only thing here that I can see the benefit of, is that the news coverage of non-competes being void, will make more employees aware that they're void.

tomashertus 5y ago

Awesome! I can't wait when it will be officially illegal to work.

dr-detroit 5y ago

Cool maybe I should move there lets just see... average salary Ontario canada $ 52,260 in monopoly money $40,866.27 in petrobux... uhhhh, no.

legerdemain 5y ago

Unintended consequences in 3... 2... 1... In general, legislation is a terrible solution where simple personal responsibility, team culture, and "voting with your feet" work best. In before Ontario has a net outflow of devs to places that don't micromanage what kinds of messages I can send to my employees and at what hour. Some of the closest bonds I've built with other engineers happened at 5AM on a Monday morning because we need to debug a server failure live in prod. All hands on deck! Raise the hacker flag and pass out the RedBull! Tallyho!

robomc 5y ago
If you need engineers to respond to server issues at 5am you can and should be paying them to be on call, and then paying them on top of that when an incident occurs. I don't think anything in this law (which doesn't seem to even resemble the headline of this article tbh) would prevent that.
- skyde 5y ago
  100 % agree Should be extra pay just for the stress of being on call and not allowed to go make plan for your weekend (movie, camping …) And some extra cash for each call you received
- CommanderData 5y ago
  Legislation here is great and I welcome it.
malermeister 5y ago
> Some of the closest bonds I've built with other engineers happened at 5AM on a Monday morning because we need to debug a server failure live in prod. All hands on deck! Raise the hacker flag and pass out the RedBull! See, this is exactly the toxic work culture this is preventing. I don't want to be working at 5AM on a monday morning, and I don't want coworkers to do so either, creating cultural pressure I do. There shouldn't be "personal responsibility" when it comes to workers rights and (self-)exploitation.
- legerdemain 5y ago
  What in the world is "self-exploitation"? More woke college student hooey?
  - malermeister 5y ago
    Self-exploitation is an ideological control mechanism of the bourgeoisie in modern capitalism, where, instead of outright coercion, more insidious mechanisms are used to extract surplus value from labor. By activating the worker's will to generate value and "empowering" them to partake in "hustle culture", they create a system in which they can seize surplus value while the subject isn't even aware of their own exploitation. (your comments are a prime example :)) See also the Gramscian notion of cultural hegemony for more details on the mechanisms at play here.

dionidium 5y ago

Can an employee opt-out? I don't mind when my boss contacts me after hours. I'm happy to jump on a serious issue in a timely manner, when needed. My boss has never abused this willingness and if he did I'd be happy to have a conversation with him about it myself. I don't need anybody else to intervene on my behalf.

smnrchrds 5y ago
> Can an employee opt-out? I am curious to know this for a different reason: if opt-out is possible, it will become a standard term in all employment contracts from now on, so this law might as well not exist. We know all too well from the cookie law that a law with opt-out turns completely useless before the ink is even dry.
missedthecue 5y ago
I agree, I don't mind getting contacted after hours
Daishiman 5y ago
You can opt out in the same way that everyone opts out of legal protections: by doing whatever you want and not being a snitch about it. It works great when everyone's buddy-buddy and there's trust. It also gives you great leverage when things go south.
kelnos 5y ago
I hope not. Then "opting out" (wink wink) will become the standard, and employers won't hire you unless you "opt out".
strathmeyer 5y ago
Your employer can opt-out by paying you.
malermeister 5y ago
Other employees probably don't want you to be contacted after hours, as it sets the expectation that it's okay to contact them too. This is to protect them, not you.

hbrav 5y ago

The part about banning non-compete agreements is promising, but I would suggest that anyone in Ontario check very carefully before assuming this applies to them. Ontario has previously exempted large classes of people from certain employment protections, including "IT professionals". https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules/government-employees-and-professionals https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptio...

908B64B197 5y ago
Honestly, if your jurisdiction doesn't have the same non-compete laws as in California, that's a red flag.

robomc 5y ago

Read the actual law guys, it's nothing like that headline. https://www.ola.org/sites/default/files/node-files/bill/document/pdf/2021/2021-10/b027_e.pdf https://www.ola.org/sites/default/files/node-files/bill/docu...

colinprince 5y ago
I can see on page 3: "[..] defined to mean not engaging in work-related communications [..] so as to be free from the performance of work." The intention is there, are you saying it does not say it clearly?
- robomc 5y ago
  It says they need to have a policy. It doesn't say what the policy has to be, what the punishments are for breaching it, what exceptions could be allowed, who signs off on the policy etc. It also only applies for larger organisations. That's a long way from "it's illegal for your company to contact you out of hours".
- skyde 5y ago
  is a pager from an automated system that detect the server are in fire part of « engaging in communication « ?

skyde 5y ago

as a backend engineer i am on call 24/7 .. How do they define « after hour »