3 ms·

You might be surprised how many contributors you might gain with NSFW content. All the evil people need an occupation too. That business doesn't want to be asso

You might be surprised how many contributors you might gain with NSFW content. All the evil people need an occupation too. That business doesn't want to be associated with it is mostly due to other reasons. If your open source project is for business, you can of course chose to have any content restriction you want. But there cannot be a general rule. Projects on github are endangered enough to be both, abused and helped by corporate input. I don't the MS embrace care program to be extinguished in phase 2. Most projects are projects of passion and if that passion includes pictures of naked people, who am I to argue against that?

eesmith 5y ago
"evil people"? Do you really think that or are you trying to put words in my mouth? I'm not arguing for or against any type of project. Even those "mostly due to other reasons" include Bona Fide Occupational Qualifications; a FOSS project for nudist organizations may include pictures of naked people and be developed at someone's work even within EEOC guidelines. What I am arguing against are the ideas that, when talking about "WTF is Wrong with Open Source Communities": 1) "self-selection" is all that meaningful, esp. as the piece mentions issues with that concept, and 2) lack of discrimination of patch acceptance due to submitter's protected group membership status is the primary standard.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  You can look at the pipeline of programmers and you will see a demographic pretty similar to open source. The usual story here is that this is also due to discrimination, which isn't based on evidence and should be dismissed without further comment. I do think there are factors, large ones even, that keep some women out of tech and they aren't sourced in biology. None of these are adressed by the suggestions in the article. I think the largest expression of sexism actually comes from people that suggest "solutions" like this. Using stereotypes now to make it clear in how I see positions like these. They wouldn't ever go into a nail saloon, complain about legal security or their behavior and cite it as the reason why they have difficulties hiring males. But it is with males that you insinuate discrimination. That sounds very well like prejudice to me and I also think the referenced studies came to prederterminded conclusion and are of little scientific value. Most open source projects don't contain nudes, but some actually do. I don't think this is a problem. To think this is the reason women are kept out of the industry is nonsensical to me. I am missing even the hint of truth here.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    > You can look at the pipeline of programmers and you will see a demographic pretty similar to open source. Source please? Last I heard of, that was not the case. As https://www.wired.com/2017/06/diversity-open-source-even-worse-tech-overall/ https://www.wired.com/2017/06/diversity-open-source-even-wor... contexualizes about the research published at https://opensourcesurvey.org/2017/ https://opensourcesurvey.org/2017/ : ] GitHub, the world's leading repository of open-source code, surveyed 5,500 open source users and developers from around the world on a range of topics. It also asked for demographic information. And it was informative. Of that randomly selected cohort, a full 95 percent of respondents were male. Only three percent identified as female and one percent as non-binary. According to Bureau of Labor Statistics, about 22.6 percent of professional computer programmers are female. About 16 percent of respondents said they belonged to ethnic or national groups that are in the minority in the country they live in. Black, Asian, and Latino programmers account for a total of about 34 percent of programmers in the US, according to the bureau. This is one of the studies referenced in the paper. To be fair, these numbers (world-wide participation vs. US labor representation) are not directly comparable. But since a large number of FOSS developers come from the US, there would need to be a huge number of non-US male software developers to shift the demographics meaningfully. Other counter-examples: > Several surveys have found that existing FOSS communities are very homogenous populations and made up of mostly men. There are significantly fewer women participating in FOSS when compared to the percentage of women in computing in general. - https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/concern/graduate_thesis_or_dissertations/x633f347t?locale=en https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/concern/graduate_thesis_o... > Although organizations are taking actions to increase gender diversity, the percentage of women in OSS projects are in average lower than 10%. Only 7.5% of the contributions to public code from the last 50 years were authored by women [6]. Women represent only 5.2% of the contributors to the Apache Software Foundation [7], 9.9% in Linux kernel [8],and 10% of OpenStack contributors [9], three of the largest and most well-known OSS communities. Indeed, women represent only 9% of GitHub users [10]. - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.08763.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.08763.pdf and here's the US statistics, from https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm : Computer programmers: 417k employed, 21.1% women Software developers: 1,883k employed, 19.4% women Software quality assurance analysts and testers: 82K employed, 25.1% women I don't know what '"solutions"' you are talking about. I don't understand your nail salon analogy. I don't know which referenced studies you refer to. I don't know why you are sure they are wrong, when your doubt could be an expression of your own prejudice. And you're the one who brought up "naked people". The point wasn't that NSFW images keep women out of FOSS, it was an example of how FOSS project participation CANNOT be viewed as "self-selection" because, as fivelessminutes correctly points out "a lot of contributors (eg, ones logging in on a work pc)" would be in workplace environments which prohibit certain types of imagery, like "sexy women", which was the term I used. To turn that into "the reason women are kept out of the industry" is completely misreading my comments.

eesmith 5y ago

"evil people"? Do you really think that or are you trying to put words in my mouth? I'm not arguing for or against any type of project. Even those "mostly due to other reasons" include Bona Fide Occupational Qualifications; a FOSS project for nudist organizations may include pictures of naked people and be developed at someone's work even within EEOC guidelines. What I am arguing against are the ideas that, when talking about "WTF is Wrong with Open Source Communities": 1) "self-selection" is all that meaningful, esp. as the piece mentions issues with that concept, and 2) lack of discrimination of patch acceptance due to submitter's protected group membership status is the primary standard.

raxxorrax 5y ago
You can look at the pipeline of programmers and you will see a demographic pretty similar to open source. The usual story here is that this is also due to discrimination, which isn't based on evidence and should be dismissed without further comment. I do think there are factors, large ones even, that keep some women out of tech and they aren't sourced in biology. None of these are adressed by the suggestions in the article. I think the largest expression of sexism actually comes from people that suggest "solutions" like this. Using stereotypes now to make it clear in how I see positions like these. They wouldn't ever go into a nail saloon, complain about legal security or their behavior and cite it as the reason why they have difficulties hiring males. But it is with males that you insinuate discrimination. That sounds very well like prejudice to me and I also think the referenced studies came to prederterminded conclusion and are of little scientific value. Most open source projects don't contain nudes, but some actually do. I don't think this is a problem. To think this is the reason women are kept out of the industry is nonsensical to me. I am missing even the hint of truth here.
- eesmith 5y ago
  > You can look at the pipeline of programmers and you will see a demographic pretty similar to open source. Source please? Last I heard of, that was not the case. As https://www.wired.com/2017/06/diversity-open-source-even-worse-tech-overall/ https://www.wired.com/2017/06/diversity-open-source-even-wor... contexualizes about the research published at https://opensourcesurvey.org/2017/ https://opensourcesurvey.org/2017/ : ] GitHub, the world's leading repository of open-source code, surveyed 5,500 open source users and developers from around the world on a range of topics. It also asked for demographic information. And it was informative. Of that randomly selected cohort, a full 95 percent of respondents were male. Only three percent identified as female and one percent as non-binary. According to Bureau of Labor Statistics, about 22.6 percent of professional computer programmers are female. About 16 percent of respondents said they belonged to ethnic or national groups that are in the minority in the country they live in. Black, Asian, and Latino programmers account for a total of about 34 percent of programmers in the US, according to the bureau. This is one of the studies referenced in the paper. To be fair, these numbers (world-wide participation vs. US labor representation) are not directly comparable. But since a large number of FOSS developers come from the US, there would need to be a huge number of non-US male software developers to shift the demographics meaningfully. Other counter-examples: > Several surveys have found that existing FOSS communities are very homogenous populations and made up of mostly men. There are significantly fewer women participating in FOSS when compared to the percentage of women in computing in general. - https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/concern/graduate_thesis_or_dissertations/x633f347t?locale=en https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/concern/graduate_thesis_o... > Although organizations are taking actions to increase gender diversity, the percentage of women in OSS projects are in average lower than 10%. Only 7.5% of the contributions to public code from the last 50 years were authored by women [6]. Women represent only 5.2% of the contributors to the Apache Software Foundation [7], 9.9% in Linux kernel [8],and 10% of OpenStack contributors [9], three of the largest and most well-known OSS communities. Indeed, women represent only 9% of GitHub users [10]. - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.08763.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.08763.pdf and here's the US statistics, from https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm : Computer programmers: 417k employed, 21.1% women Software developers: 1,883k employed, 19.4% women Software quality assurance analysts and testers: 82K employed, 25.1% women I don't know what '"solutions"' you are talking about. I don't understand your nail salon analogy. I don't know which referenced studies you refer to. I don't know why you are sure they are wrong, when your doubt could be an expression of your own prejudice. And you're the one who brought up "naked people". The point wasn't that NSFW images keep women out of FOSS, it was an example of how FOSS project participation CANNOT be viewed as "self-selection" because, as fivelessminutes correctly points out "a lot of contributors (eg, ones logging in on a work pc)" would be in workplace environments which prohibit certain types of imagery, like "sexy women", which was the term I used. To turn that into "the reason women are kept out of the industry" is completely misreading my comments.