9 ms·

Some people are getting side-tracked asking if this is a common problem. I think that's a distraction: the right number of rescinded offers to engineers and oth

Some people are getting side-tracked asking if this is a common problem. I think that's a distraction: the right number of rescinded offers to engineers and other individual contributors is 0.[0] If the actual number of candidates affected is small, then it would be cheap to make it right for them. You could find a team that can take the engineer (we're not interchangeable parts, but Stripe is a big company), and/or offer monetary compensation for the opportunity cost. [0] I'll reserve judgment about higher level management. I don't know if the norms and circumstances are different. Obviously this also excludes failed background checks, candidates being dishonest, etc, etc.

valar_m 5y ago
In the case of failed background checks, the solution is actually quite simple - tell the candidate it's an offer contingent upon the background check. But you're right - rescinding job offers is an absolutely vile business practice. Imagine resigning from your job after accepting an offer from Stripe, and then they just change their minds. Gross.
- TAForObvReasons 5y ago
  Not a lawyer, but promissory estoppel may apply
  - justusw 5y ago
    In Japan, a written job offer is almost as good as a job contract, so if the company decides to rescind it, you’ve got legal grounds to sue them. I assumed that something similar should exist in the US and I am relieved to hear that might actually be the case.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Not really - the U.S. (except Montana) makes work at-will, where either side can terminate the work immediately without cause (although it can't be for reasons discriminatory of a protected class like race, religion, etc). You might be able to get damages for misrepresentation at most, but you'd have to show they never intended to hire you in the first place, or perhaps on the basis they allegedly didn't clarify that the offer is contingent on a background check.
    - discopicante 5y ago
      It's really not the case. Job contracts in the United States are rare unless you are approaching or in the C-suite. Employment law is typically enforced at the state level; all states practice some form of 'at-will' employment meaning an employer can dismiss an employee for any reason as long as it's not illegal (e.g. discrimination). States like California and New York might require a bit more paperwork but it's nothing like employee protections and job contracts elsewhere in the world.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        > Job contracts in the United States are rare Most people don't sign a contract between employer and employee in the US? So you don't even have any kind of confidentially agreement?
        judge2020 5y ago
        Office jobs often do have an NDA, but otherwise a lot of trades and hourly positions don't opt for one. The retaliation for leaking sensitive info is either suing for leaking trade secrets (which is rare), or just firing them on the spot.
        bkberry352 5y ago
        Confidentiality agreements are relatively common, but outside of that there is no written contract. Generally speaking, US jobs fall under a legal category here called "at-will" employment, which makes it easy for either party to end the relationship at any time. Personally, I've worked a variety of jobs and never signed a written contract for any of them. In a few, I've not received a formal offer letter.
      - Nitrolo 5y ago
        Never worked in the states so I'm not sure if things are different there, and I guess I'm misunderstanding something here, but are you saying that there are no contracts between most employers and employees? There must be something that both are signing right? With pay rate, hours and benefits written down.
    - thomascgalvin 5y ago
      There are very few worker protections in the US. We're mostly a "right to work" nation, which is doublespeak for "workers have few, if any, rights."
  - tfehring 5y ago
    Also not a lawyer but my understanding is that the damages you can collect even if you win a judgment are only a fraction of the damages a layperson would identify, e.g., you generally wouldn't get anything for quitting your previous job or ending your lease (though you might get closing costs if you sell a house).
- zrail 5y ago
  Every offer letter I've ever received has language to the effect that it's contingent on a number of things, including a background check.
  - ghostly_s 5y ago
    I've never received such a thing.
    - justin66 5y ago
      The employer would only need that verbiage in an offer letter if they had failed to perform all reference, credit, criminal, etc. checks prior to sending you the letter.
      - _moof 5y ago
        Companies don't "fail" to perform background checks prior to making offers. In some jurisdictions (e.g. California), it's illegal to perform a background check prior to making an offer. https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/fair-chance-act/ https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/fair-chance-act/ https://www.nelp.org/campaign/ensuring-fair-chance-to-work/ https://www.nelp.org/campaign/ensuring-fair-chance-to-work/
        justin66 5y ago
        This is interesting! My involvement in background screening began and ended before this law was enacted. The CA law is probably good at preventing outright, unfair elimination of candidates because of criminal history. I think one key thing in that California law is the notion of the “conditional job offer.” This law doesn’t effect the dynamics of the offer letters we were discussing at all. If you make an offer and there are still conditions pending, you’re obligated to let the candidate know. I cannot imagine CA is doing that differently. I get your point, though, that doing the criminal portion of the background check after extending the offer is now not just normal, but mandatory, in CA.
        deleted 5y ago
ghshephard 5y ago
I like the google approach for more senior roles - you interview for 2+ months, get approved, and only then do you actually start to look for an actual role at the company. They invert the job/approval process.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  I like the concept, but the amount of uncompensated time candidates have to give to the company is excessive and a lot of non-Google companies couldn't get away with it.
  - sam0x17 5y ago
    Yes, I had the smug joy of getting to tell my Google recruiter to f off back in 2014 because of a number of red flags in their interviewing process, very early in my career. I don't regret it at all, and actually my decision to simply take a short-term research internship at a DoE lab instead (and surprisingly) opened a number of doors in the startup world for me that I wouldn't have even known exist otherwise. In my case one major red flag was "having to fly somewhere before I have an official offer", and I can only imagine the new zoomer crowd leans much more in that direction. FANG doesn't respect your time or effort at all, they think you should be honored just to be in their presence. That shit doesn't fly anymore.
    - mgkimsal 5y ago
      Had somewhat similar experience... 2014/2015 maybe. Unsolicited call out to me, asking me to interview. I had a couple of questions - one of which included salary range. I was being expected to go take days off and fly to them, but they wouldn't give me even a basic range. Nothing. I declined to go further. I told someone who then said "well... that's not the way you get a job!" And I said "but... I didn't want a job. They called me. They wanted a worker, but wouldn't do me the courtesy of basic information before I was to drop whatever I was doing and come running to them on their timetable".
    - VRay 5y ago
      Getting a free all-expenses-paid weekend in Mountain View is a perk to a lot of people If I weren't busy with the familoids at home I'd love a free plane trip and fancy hotel stay. Er, in non-pandemic times at least
htrp 5y ago
In most companies with apparently functioning HR, you don't get a written offer until after the reference/bg check clears. Your verbal is what gets you to provide those reference/bg check authorizations. This is like HR 101
- ollien 5y ago
  Both of the companies I've worked at have given me an offer prior to a background check, and included a clause that the offer could be terminated if I failed it.
  - wyclif 5y ago
    Out of curiousity, what (besides criminal activity) would cause a candidate to fail a background check done by a software company?
    - ollien 5y ago
      Lying about job history. I almost failed my last one because I accidentally filled out the wrong dates for an internship.
    - gumby 5y ago
      If the job involves handling money (CFO’s office, especially A/P and A/R). Security guard and such. Otherwise I think that they are an unwarranted intrusion, but our HR and Legal say otherwise.
      - wyclif 5y ago
        Thanks for the reply, but I'm not quite sure I understand (or maybe I'm just being thick this morning). Are you saying that if you had a previous job handling money you're automatically disqualified, or are you only suggesting that if you handled money and they report something was amiss you won't pass?
        5y ago
newfonewhodis 5y ago
This 100%. If I was spending days of my time on a company only to be treated poorly, I should not be a statistic. This is also why honest feedback for rejections should be required (by law? probably not. maybe by social pressure) so candidates know that the decision wasn't just a fluke

valar_m 5y ago

In the case of failed background checks, the solution is actually quite simple - tell the candidate it's an offer contingent upon the background check. But you're right - rescinding job offers is an absolutely vile business practice. Imagine resigning from your job after accepting an offer from Stripe, and then they just change their minds. Gross.

TAForObvReasons 5y ago
Not a lawyer, but promissory estoppel may apply
- justusw 5y ago
  In Japan, a written job offer is almost as good as a job contract, so if the company decides to rescind it, you’ve got legal grounds to sue them. I assumed that something similar should exist in the US and I am relieved to hear that might actually be the case.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Not really - the U.S. (except Montana) makes work at-will, where either side can terminate the work immediately without cause (although it can't be for reasons discriminatory of a protected class like race, religion, etc). You might be able to get damages for misrepresentation at most, but you'd have to show they never intended to hire you in the first place, or perhaps on the basis they allegedly didn't clarify that the offer is contingent on a background check.
  - discopicante 5y ago
    It's really not the case. Job contracts in the United States are rare unless you are approaching or in the C-suite. Employment law is typically enforced at the state level; all states practice some form of 'at-will' employment meaning an employer can dismiss an employee for any reason as long as it's not illegal (e.g. discrimination). States like California and New York might require a bit more paperwork but it's nothing like employee protections and job contracts elsewhere in the world.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > Job contracts in the United States are rare Most people don't sign a contract between employer and employee in the US? So you don't even have any kind of confidentially agreement?
      - judge2020 5y ago
        Office jobs often do have an NDA, but otherwise a lot of trades and hourly positions don't opt for one. The retaliation for leaking sensitive info is either suing for leaking trade secrets (which is rare), or just firing them on the spot.
      - bkberry352 5y ago
        Confidentiality agreements are relatively common, but outside of that there is no written contract. Generally speaking, US jobs fall under a legal category here called "at-will" employment, which makes it easy for either party to end the relationship at any time. Personally, I've worked a variety of jobs and never signed a written contract for any of them. In a few, I've not received a formal offer letter.
    - Nitrolo 5y ago
      Never worked in the states so I'm not sure if things are different there, and I guess I'm misunderstanding something here, but are you saying that there are no contracts between most employers and employees? There must be something that both are signing right? With pay rate, hours and benefits written down.
  - thomascgalvin 5y ago
    There are very few worker protections in the US. We're mostly a "right to work" nation, which is doublespeak for "workers have few, if any, rights."
- tfehring 5y ago
  Also not a lawyer but my understanding is that the damages you can collect even if you win a judgment are only a fraction of the damages a layperson would identify, e.g., you generally wouldn't get anything for quitting your previous job or ending your lease (though you might get closing costs if you sell a house).
zrail 5y ago
Every offer letter I've ever received has language to the effect that it's contingent on a number of things, including a background check.
- ghostly_s 5y ago
  I've never received such a thing.
  - justin66 5y ago
    The employer would only need that verbiage in an offer letter if they had failed to perform all reference, credit, criminal, etc. checks prior to sending you the letter.
    - _moof 5y ago
      Companies don't "fail" to perform background checks prior to making offers. In some jurisdictions (e.g. California), it's illegal to perform a background check prior to making an offer. https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/fair-chance-act/ https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/fair-chance-act/ https://www.nelp.org/campaign/ensuring-fair-chance-to-work/ https://www.nelp.org/campaign/ensuring-fair-chance-to-work/
      - justin66 5y ago
        This is interesting! My involvement in background screening began and ended before this law was enacted. The CA law is probably good at preventing outright, unfair elimination of candidates because of criminal history. I think one key thing in that California law is the notion of the “conditional job offer.” This law doesn’t effect the dynamics of the offer letters we were discussing at all. If you make an offer and there are still conditions pending, you’re obligated to let the candidate know. I cannot imagine CA is doing that differently. I get your point, though, that doing the criminal portion of the background check after extending the offer is now not just normal, but mandatory, in CA.
        deleted 5y ago

ghshephard 5y ago

I like the google approach for more senior roles - you interview for 2+ months, get approved, and only then do you actually start to look for an actual role at the company. They invert the job/approval process.

Someone1234 5y ago
I like the concept, but the amount of uncompensated time candidates have to give to the company is excessive and a lot of non-Google companies couldn't get away with it.
- sam0x17 5y ago
  Yes, I had the smug joy of getting to tell my Google recruiter to f off back in 2014 because of a number of red flags in their interviewing process, very early in my career. I don't regret it at all, and actually my decision to simply take a short-term research internship at a DoE lab instead (and surprisingly) opened a number of doors in the startup world for me that I wouldn't have even known exist otherwise. In my case one major red flag was "having to fly somewhere before I have an official offer", and I can only imagine the new zoomer crowd leans much more in that direction. FANG doesn't respect your time or effort at all, they think you should be honored just to be in their presence. That shit doesn't fly anymore.
  - mgkimsal 5y ago
    Had somewhat similar experience... 2014/2015 maybe. Unsolicited call out to me, asking me to interview. I had a couple of questions - one of which included salary range. I was being expected to go take days off and fly to them, but they wouldn't give me even a basic range. Nothing. I declined to go further. I told someone who then said "well... that's not the way you get a job!" And I said "but... I didn't want a job. They called me. They wanted a worker, but wouldn't do me the courtesy of basic information before I was to drop whatever I was doing and come running to them on their timetable".
  - VRay 5y ago
    Getting a free all-expenses-paid weekend in Mountain View is a perk to a lot of people If I weren't busy with the familoids at home I'd love a free plane trip and fancy hotel stay. Er, in non-pandemic times at least

htrp 5y ago

In most companies with apparently functioning HR, you don't get a written offer until after the reference/bg check clears. Your verbal is what gets you to provide those reference/bg check authorizations. This is like HR 101

ollien 5y ago
Both of the companies I've worked at have given me an offer prior to a background check, and included a clause that the offer could be terminated if I failed it.
- wyclif 5y ago
  Out of curiousity, what (besides criminal activity) would cause a candidate to fail a background check done by a software company?
  - ollien 5y ago
    Lying about job history. I almost failed my last one because I accidentally filled out the wrong dates for an internship.
  - gumby 5y ago
    If the job involves handling money (CFO’s office, especially A/P and A/R). Security guard and such. Otherwise I think that they are an unwarranted intrusion, but our HR and Legal say otherwise.
    - wyclif 5y ago
      Thanks for the reply, but I'm not quite sure I understand (or maybe I'm just being thick this morning). Are you saying that if you had a previous job handling money you're automatically disqualified, or are you only suggesting that if you handled money and they report something was amiss you won't pass?
      - 5y ago

newfonewhodis 5y ago

This 100%. If I was spending days of my time on a company only to be treated poorly, I should not be a statistic. This is also why honest feedback for rejections should be required (by law? probably not. maybe by social pressure) so candidates know that the decision wasn't just a fluke