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Any time there is an article on HN about prisons, most of the comments are kooky conspiracy theories. The concept that bad people intent on committing crime exi

Any time there is an article on HN about prisons, most of the comments are kooky conspiracy theories. The concept that bad people intent on committing crime exist seems to be incomprehensible to many if not most in this audience for some reason. The article itself is biased and not founded in any rational reasoning. It recognizes the potential for contraband for books coming from random sources then justifies it merely because "most contraband comes from guards anyway" or so it says. The original source linked to in this article was a better and more objective read: https://www.iowapublicradio.org/ipr-news/2021-04-29/iowa-state-prisons-ban-family-members-third-parties-from-sending-books-to-inmates https://www.iowapublicradio.org/ipr-news/2021-04-29/iowa-sta...

int_19h 5y ago
I can't see anybody seriously arguing that bad people intent on commiting crime exist; the questions, rather, is "how many people?", "how bad are they really?", "how serious the crime is?", and "is locking them up really the best way to deal with it?". But even ignoring all that, there are clearly better ways to deal with contraband.
- jdjdjrj 5y ago
  Those questions you ask were already decided in a court of law by an elected or appointed judge and a jury of the subject's peers. And if there is a better way to deal with contraband then what is it? HN wants to trust the experts on many topics, yet for some reason not on this topic.
  - ohyeshedid 5y ago
    > HN wants to trust the experts on many topics, yet for some reason not on this topic. Where does your expertise in this topic come from?
    - jdjdjrj 5y ago
      Where did I claim to be an expert? I'm referring to the actions taken by the experts who oversee the prison system mentioned in the article.
      - ohyeshedid 5y ago
        Unqualified people fail upward, qualified people make mistakes, and some people are just crooked. I wonder if the same folks banning books in prisons are the same folks that sell access licenses for trash pseudo-documentary tv shows in prison? You know the ones, they usually show you inmates using or trading dope or they'll show off some weapons. This is considered entertainment television programming. I wouldn't be making appeals to others expertise without some skepticism, friend.
        jdjdjrj 5y ago
        They didn't ban books. They banned books from random sources. Established retailers and other approved sources are not banned and there is a process for becoming approved. If you study corrections at all this is a very common policy and I'm surprised they did not have this already.
        ohyeshedid 5y ago
        > If you study corrections at all Hey friend, some people learn about corrections the hard way, so it's not assumptions and appeals to authority, it's a lived experience. The approval processes of any vendors come with product restrictions, which function as bans.
        jdjdjrj 5y ago
        Supreme court has upheld that some things can be banned if they are in the interest of maintaining the security of a detention facility. Inmates shouldn't be receiving books on how to make bombs for instance.
        5y ago
  - int_19h 5y ago
    Not really, because 1) the court of law operates according to, well, the law, which is itself far from perfect - many things that are offenses probably shouldn't be, and many others should probably not mandate prison terms; and 2) none of those people you've mentioned get much if any say on how prisons are actually run. In any case, when US locks up more of its population in relative terms than any other country in the world, I think the assumption that things are basically broken here should be the default - the onus is on those supporting the status quo to explain why US is special. The better way to deal with contraband is electronic readers, just to give one obvious example.
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  > how many people?", "how bad are they really? Sadly we have to design for the edge cases lest they go completely unhandled/unchecked
  - int_19h 5y ago
    The way things are now, it seems that everybody else is basically thrown under the bus for the sake of those edge cases.
  - cool_dude85 5y ago
    Computer programming metaphors being stretched to the point of breaking to justify... banning books in prison. Personally I think that the "halting problem" of whether to halt sending books to prisoners is better served with informed discussion, and not sad metaphors that attempt to end run around considering the actual issues at play.
  - freeflight 5y ago
    When you design for the "edge cases" you end up with a bunch of Supermaxes were people vegitate 23 hours a day in solitary, which is btw commonly considered torture [0] Maybe the goal shouldn't be to design for "unchecked edge cases to apply maximum punishment" but rather a fundamental change in US prison and incarceration policies [1] [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-idUSKCN0WA2B8 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-idU... [1] https://youtu.be/wtV5ev6813I https://youtu.be/wtV5ev6813I
    - jdjdjrj 5y ago
      Corrections theory has evolved a lot since 1950s and it hasn't been about applying punishment for a long time. If someone is locked up 23 hours a day, it is because it was determined through a classification process that they are a danger to the staff and other inmates to be in any less restrictive housing. Modern corrections theory is about putting inmates in the least restrictive housing necessary to keep them. Some considerations of the many are often that the inmate has a history of assaulting or extorting other inmates if they are housed in a general population dorm. Source: Corrections in America book As for your article, it's not proper to lump together prisons such as Guantanamo Bay, which is a military prison, to the typical state and federally run facilities. These are completely different types of prisons with different ways of operation, and inmates are inside for different purposes. Issues at Guantanamo Bay are not representative of issues present at the state run prison mentioned in the HN article.
- lr4444lr 5y ago
  There seems to be this assumption that Americans are thrown into prison willy nilly for every small offense. Yes, it does happen in some egregious cases. A few decades ago, our zero tolerance drug laws were a real contributor here. Today however, for the most part, you have to commit either a major violent crime, or have a serial record of continual offenses to wind up in prison in most jurisdictions.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    Why would you believe this? The awful drug laws didn't just go away. The guy who wrote many of them is President now. Vastly more people are in the system for drug offenses today than there were "a few decades ago". Every arrest for drug sales, possession, or use is an injustice. 95% of cases end in plea bargain rather than a real verdict. We imprison more people, in both percentage and absolute terms, than any nation on earth, in history. The system is set up to maximize incarceration, and that's absolutely what it does.
    - n8cpdx 5y ago
      I keep seeing violent criminals let out to repeatedly victimize my fellow community members. No jail. No prison. I see people showing up dead who have booking photos (aka in hindsight, should have been imprisoned for their own safety). About once a month so far, but I don’t Google each case; the murders aren’t really news anymore in 2021. https://www.google.com/amp/s/katu.com/amp/news/local/a-growing-community-problem-repeat-offenders-make-up-more-than-a-quarter-of-jail-bookings https://www.google.com/amp/s/katu.com/amp/news/local/a-growi... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.koin.com/local/multnomah-county/man-arrested-6-times-while-awaiting-trial-for-car-part-theft/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.koin.com/local/multnomah-co... I know it’s tough to believe coming from a position of privilege (believe me, I used to hold similar beliefs) but there is actual serious social dysfunction in the world. There is violent crime associated with hard drug use. Meth is actually a big deal. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new... We’re seeing a massive spike in homicides so I think for some that is what is shattering the illusion of the post-90s quiet period we’re coming out of. FWIW, I have personally been attacked by a person who was most likely experiencing meth-induced psychosis. I didn’t want to acknowledge how dangerous people can be. Edit: and it’s not just the actual attacks being a sole problem. I can’t walk very far without having to dodge someone who is in full-blown psychosis, either screaming obscenities (if you said ‘faggot’ and ‘nigger’ sound like not nice things to say to passers by, I would agree) or violently brandishing construction materials or knives. Sometimes it is just destruction of public property, but that is less common, since they might actually be bothered if they cause too much damage in one place. Sometimes the cops stop by, but they can’t do anything because being high on meth and making the public uncomfortable is not actually illegal and the jails won’t book anyone for anything less than murder or rape.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  I tell you one thing - I'd never really associated with any criminals before I went to jail and I was surprised by the personalities of those I met inside. The title of my autobiography will be "All my friends are murderers". Honestly, nearly all my closest friends in jail were the murderers - for the most part they were the nicest, calmest, most intelligent people locked up. Why is that? I don't know. [I was in a jail where there was no classification - you could steal a candy bar and be celled with a guy facing a mandatory life sentence for multiple homicides]

int_19h 5y ago

I can't see anybody seriously arguing that bad people intent on commiting crime exist; the questions, rather, is "how many people?", "how bad are they really?", "how serious the crime is?", and "is locking them up really the best way to deal with it?". But even ignoring all that, there are clearly better ways to deal with contraband.

jdjdjrj 5y ago
Those questions you ask were already decided in a court of law by an elected or appointed judge and a jury of the subject's peers. And if there is a better way to deal with contraband then what is it? HN wants to trust the experts on many topics, yet for some reason not on this topic.
- ohyeshedid 5y ago
  > HN wants to trust the experts on many topics, yet for some reason not on this topic. Where does your expertise in this topic come from?
  - jdjdjrj 5y ago
    Where did I claim to be an expert? I'm referring to the actions taken by the experts who oversee the prison system mentioned in the article.
    - ohyeshedid 5y ago
      Unqualified people fail upward, qualified people make mistakes, and some people are just crooked. I wonder if the same folks banning books in prisons are the same folks that sell access licenses for trash pseudo-documentary tv shows in prison? You know the ones, they usually show you inmates using or trading dope or they'll show off some weapons. This is considered entertainment television programming. I wouldn't be making appeals to others expertise without some skepticism, friend.
      - jdjdjrj 5y ago
        They didn't ban books. They banned books from random sources. Established retailers and other approved sources are not banned and there is a process for becoming approved. If you study corrections at all this is a very common policy and I'm surprised they did not have this already.
        ohyeshedid 5y ago
        > If you study corrections at all Hey friend, some people learn about corrections the hard way, so it's not assumptions and appeals to authority, it's a lived experience. The approval processes of any vendors come with product restrictions, which function as bans.
        jdjdjrj 5y ago
        Supreme court has upheld that some things can be banned if they are in the interest of maintaining the security of a detention facility. Inmates shouldn't be receiving books on how to make bombs for instance.
        5y ago
- int_19h 5y ago
  Not really, because 1) the court of law operates according to, well, the law, which is itself far from perfect - many things that are offenses probably shouldn't be, and many others should probably not mandate prison terms; and 2) none of those people you've mentioned get much if any say on how prisons are actually run. In any case, when US locks up more of its population in relative terms than any other country in the world, I think the assumption that things are basically broken here should be the default - the onus is on those supporting the status quo to explain why US is special. The better way to deal with contraband is electronic readers, just to give one obvious example.
maerF0x0 5y ago
> how many people?", "how bad are they really? Sadly we have to design for the edge cases lest they go completely unhandled/unchecked
- int_19h 5y ago
  The way things are now, it seems that everybody else is basically thrown under the bus for the sake of those edge cases.
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  Computer programming metaphors being stretched to the point of breaking to justify... banning books in prison. Personally I think that the "halting problem" of whether to halt sending books to prisoners is better served with informed discussion, and not sad metaphors that attempt to end run around considering the actual issues at play.
- freeflight 5y ago
  When you design for the "edge cases" you end up with a bunch of Supermaxes were people vegitate 23 hours a day in solitary, which is btw commonly considered torture [0] Maybe the goal shouldn't be to design for "unchecked edge cases to apply maximum punishment" but rather a fundamental change in US prison and incarceration policies [1] [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-idUSKCN0WA2B8 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-idU... [1] https://youtu.be/wtV5ev6813I https://youtu.be/wtV5ev6813I
  - jdjdjrj 5y ago
    Corrections theory has evolved a lot since 1950s and it hasn't been about applying punishment for a long time. If someone is locked up 23 hours a day, it is because it was determined through a classification process that they are a danger to the staff and other inmates to be in any less restrictive housing. Modern corrections theory is about putting inmates in the least restrictive housing necessary to keep them. Some considerations of the many are often that the inmate has a history of assaulting or extorting other inmates if they are housed in a general population dorm. Source: Corrections in America book As for your article, it's not proper to lump together prisons such as Guantanamo Bay, which is a military prison, to the typical state and federally run facilities. These are completely different types of prisons with different ways of operation, and inmates are inside for different purposes. Issues at Guantanamo Bay are not representative of issues present at the state run prison mentioned in the HN article.
lr4444lr 5y ago
There seems to be this assumption that Americans are thrown into prison willy nilly for every small offense. Yes, it does happen in some egregious cases. A few decades ago, our zero tolerance drug laws were a real contributor here. Today however, for the most part, you have to commit either a major violent crime, or have a serial record of continual offenses to wind up in prison in most jurisdictions.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  Why would you believe this? The awful drug laws didn't just go away. The guy who wrote many of them is President now. Vastly more people are in the system for drug offenses today than there were "a few decades ago". Every arrest for drug sales, possession, or use is an injustice. 95% of cases end in plea bargain rather than a real verdict. We imprison more people, in both percentage and absolute terms, than any nation on earth, in history. The system is set up to maximize incarceration, and that's absolutely what it does.
  - n8cpdx 5y ago
    I keep seeing violent criminals let out to repeatedly victimize my fellow community members. No jail. No prison. I see people showing up dead who have booking photos (aka in hindsight, should have been imprisoned for their own safety). About once a month so far, but I don’t Google each case; the murders aren’t really news anymore in 2021. https://www.google.com/amp/s/katu.com/amp/news/local/a-growing-community-problem-repeat-offenders-make-up-more-than-a-quarter-of-jail-bookings https://www.google.com/amp/s/katu.com/amp/news/local/a-growi... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.koin.com/local/multnomah-county/man-arrested-6-times-while-awaiting-trial-for-car-part-theft/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.koin.com/local/multnomah-co... I know it’s tough to believe coming from a position of privilege (believe me, I used to hold similar beliefs) but there is actual serious social dysfunction in the world. There is violent crime associated with hard drug use. Meth is actually a big deal. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new... We’re seeing a massive spike in homicides so I think for some that is what is shattering the illusion of the post-90s quiet period we’re coming out of. FWIW, I have personally been attacked by a person who was most likely experiencing meth-induced psychosis. I didn’t want to acknowledge how dangerous people can be. Edit: and it’s not just the actual attacks being a sole problem. I can’t walk very far without having to dodge someone who is in full-blown psychosis, either screaming obscenities (if you said ‘faggot’ and ‘nigger’ sound like not nice things to say to passers by, I would agree) or violently brandishing construction materials or knives. Sometimes it is just destruction of public property, but that is less common, since they might actually be bothered if they cause too much damage in one place. Sometimes the cops stop by, but they can’t do anything because being high on meth and making the public uncomfortable is not actually illegal and the jails won’t book anyone for anything less than murder or rape.
kingcharles 5y ago
I tell you one thing - I'd never really associated with any criminals before I went to jail and I was surprised by the personalities of those I met inside. The title of my autobiography will be "All my friends are murderers". Honestly, nearly all my closest friends in jail were the murderers - for the most part they were the nicest, calmest, most intelligent people locked up. Why is that? I don't know. [I was in a jail where there was no classification - you could steal a candy bar and be celled with a guy facing a mandatory life sentence for multiple homicides]