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>how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? For starters, consent. Telemetry generally supposes that the user opts into, either directly or by acc

>how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? For starters, consent. Telemetry generally supposes that the user opts into, either directly or by accepting the terms of using a service, and is free to walk away. I find the increasing usage of the word surveillance completely silly and ideological. If the NSA vacuums data from some underwater cable that's surveillance, when I exchange information, aware of what's being handed over in exchange for some service, that's a trade.

deleted 5y ago
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ahepp 5y ago
if it's automatic, doesn't that make it "opt out", not "opt in"?
gigel82 5y ago
How aware can you be though? Windows has dozens of different endpoints [1] that collect thousands of data points [2], and I presume that can change at any time with an update. Who has the time to read (let alone "become aware") of the full scope of that? [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-endpoints-non-enterprise-editions https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-windows-11-diagnostic-events-and-fields https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-wi...
- Barrin92 5y ago
  Here in the EU at least Windows walks you through privacy and telemetry settings on the first start and you get a very direct overview of what's being collected and knobs to turn it off, courtesy of the GDPR I think. I don't think changing data collection automatically is legal either. I'm all for informed consent, create laws to give users transparency and control over their data. But if users have that and they still decide that exchanging info for better services is worth it, calling it surveillance is I think not appropriate. Case in point, Vscode. I'll gladly give them telemetry access for getting a better editor.
  - gigel82 5y ago
    I presume you mean the OOBE (at Windows install) where you get to choose between "Required" and "Optional" telemetry; we have that in the US as well. BTW, the [2] link includes only the data set for "Required" telemetry which you have no way of disabling (unless you do DNS / IP blocking or manually disable / delete services and scheduled tasks).
_jal 5y ago
> I find the increasing usage of the word surveillance completely silly and ideological. That's nice. I find downplaying the reality of surveillance to acclimate people to even more of it very dangerous and ideological.

deleted 5y ago

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ahepp 5y ago

if it's automatic, doesn't that make it "opt out", not "opt in"?

gigel82 5y ago

How aware can you be though? Windows has dozens of different endpoints [1] that collect thousands of data points [2], and I presume that can change at any time with an update. Who has the time to read (let alone "become aware") of the full scope of that? [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-endpoints-non-enterprise-editions https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-windows-11-diagnostic-events-and-fields https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-wi...

Barrin92 5y ago
Here in the EU at least Windows walks you through privacy and telemetry settings on the first start and you get a very direct overview of what's being collected and knobs to turn it off, courtesy of the GDPR I think. I don't think changing data collection automatically is legal either. I'm all for informed consent, create laws to give users transparency and control over their data. But if users have that and they still decide that exchanging info for better services is worth it, calling it surveillance is I think not appropriate. Case in point, Vscode. I'll gladly give them telemetry access for getting a better editor.
- gigel82 5y ago
  I presume you mean the OOBE (at Windows install) where you get to choose between "Required" and "Optional" telemetry; we have that in the US as well. BTW, the [2] link includes only the data set for "Required" telemetry which you have no way of disabling (unless you do DNS / IP blocking or manually disable / delete services and scheduled tasks).

_jal 5y ago

> I find the increasing usage of the word surveillance completely silly and ideological. That's nice. I find downplaying the reality of surveillance to acclimate people to even more of it very dangerous and ideological.