12 ms·

Why no Steam, Notch?

197 points by sorbus 15y ago

wccrawford 15y ago
Sounds like good reasons, to me. They're a company with on-the-edge games and they can't afford to be held back. I'm actually quite surprised that Valve has -any- say in what they do on their own website, or what they implement in the game. I could understand having to implement certain features (like not crashing with the Steam overlay) but to prevent features, marketing, non-game sales, or anything else that doesn't directly affect Valve? Inconceivable.
- AngryParsley 15y ago
  You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Apple and XBLA have similar restrictions about interaction outside of their walled gardens. There are good reasons for this: Preventing fraud (they trust their credit card processing much more than some random app developer), filtering objectionable content for those under 18, ensuring a certain minimum standard of quality, etc. Also sorry, I accidentally downvoted you when I meant to upvote you. (Can someone please move those arrows farther apart?)
  - wccrawford 15y ago
    Actually, I'm still pretty sure Apple and XBLA do that because they can make more money, not because they are trying to protect their image. It's still the first time I've seen anyone say that physical goods based on the game were a problem. I really can't quite believe that. In-game stuff, yeah, I can see it. Ratings and whatnot. But I don't think Mojang/Notch would have a problem on the ratings end of things, unless the ratings board was out of control. Still, I could see him not taking the chance.
  - mambodog 15y ago
    Can someone please move those arrows farther apart? You could try this Stylebot style I made: http://stylebot.me/styles/248 http://stylebot.me/styles/248
shoota 15y ago
Then why are they bringing Minecraft to the XBOX 360 which is a much more locked down platform than steam?
- doctoboggan 15y ago
  Steam is merely a new distribution system for a platform Notch has already shipped on while the XBOX 360 is a totally new platform with its own required distribution system.
  - danso 15y ago
    Wonder how well this is going to go...I bought the Orange Box for the 360 when it first came out. TF2 has not seen any of the updates that the PC has had for the past 3 years.
- pavel_lishin 15y ago
  They have an alternative to using Steam on PCs - they can release their own binaries, or source. They don't really have such an alternative on the XBox.
- niklas_a 15y ago
  Because Microsoft gave Mojang an incentive, eg money? Because all PC gamers can already get Minecraft but XBOX gamers cannot?
mcantor 15y ago
I really admire how much Notch seems to understand opposing viewpoints that most people would simply make inflammatory posts about. His diplomacy here, as well as with Bethesda, has been stellar: Not "Steam is a DRM-ridden mess that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, bwa ha ha!", but instead, "I understand why they'd want to control their platform." Not "Bethesda are an Orwellian corporate giant trying to crush the little guy, bwa ha ha!", but instead, "This is probably just lawyers being lawyers." Never a bridge burned. What respect and maturity! Hats off to you, Notch. I'm proud to be a part of the same community of developers as you.
- streptomycin 15y ago
  http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp > I'm not very happy with the draconian nature of (L)GPL
  - culturestate 15y ago
    That you can point to that quote as the most inflammatory thing Notch has said just reinforces OP's point.
    - mcantor 15y ago
      Thanks for helpin' a brotha out!
    - streptomycin 15y ago
      I have no idea if it's the most inflammatory thing he's said. I don't know much about him other than he wrote a video game I've never played. I just saw http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2938141 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2938141 reference "openness" and was wondering if Minecraft was actually open source, as I didn't think it was. So I googled for license info, and the first thing I found was a quote that wouldn't be out of place in any typical Linux nerd flamewar. And then I saw the comment about Notch being so respectful and civil and whatnot, and I luled and posted the flame inducing quote. Not surprisingly, flames ensued.
daniel_reetz 15y ago
This is how the battle for openness is won. Not by endless online argument, but by building stuff. Stuff that, by virtue of its openness and flexibility, is too awesome to be needlessly and arbitrarily constrained. Beats the shit out of dogma. Good on ya, Notch.
- streptomycin 15y ago
  The battle for openness is won by building proprietary software?
  - omouse 15y ago
    He's been saying that eventually it'll be open-source, once it gets a 1.0 version? I don't know, maybe it's time to bug him some more about it...
    - doctoboggan 15y ago
      No he said it will be open source when he feels it's not making any more money. You can find this (or atleast use to be able to find it) on minecraft.net Edit: Source >Once sales start dying and a minimum time has passed, I will release the game source code as some kind of open source. http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
      Presume that he was only saying that to string along the people that would not have been otherwise interested, like the burgeoning community of open-source hackers working on various Minecraft tools.
      - Raphael 15y ago
        Does he have any history of open sourcing his software?
bstar77 15y ago
I really hope Notch comes up with something more interesting than capes for the Minecraft market. I could see something like a robust world generator being extremely interesting, but premium hats and capes has to be one of the stupidest concepts in the history of gaming. I don't like DLC's either, but I guess I just don't like any games enough to care. What I'm trying to say is that I'd like minecraft to stay in it's current innocent state. Perhaps if it grows like World of Warcraft did it will make sense, but it's a tough sell for me now. The simplicity is what makes it so charming.
- fletchowns 15y ago
  premium hats and capes has to be one of the stupidest concepts in the history of gaming. Apparently you are unaware of the runaway success of the Mann Co Store in TF2, which has done so well that TF2 is now Free-to-Play. Hats are among the variety of items that are sold on the Mann Co Store.
  - thestoicjester 15y ago
    Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's not stupid.
    - masklinn 15y ago
      If it works, how's it stupid?
      - corin_ 15y ago
        Public opinion is not always synonymous with right/moral/good/whatever. So from a subjective point of view, I would agree that it is a stupid point of view. And I actually think that a poll of gamers, not just TF2 players, would give you the same answer. However from a business point of view, certainly not a stupid view, since (as you said) it does actually work. Depends what you're trying to judge, the concept for gamers or the concept as a business plan.
      - xentronium 15y ago
georgemcbay 15y ago
Valve: Xbox 360 is too closed for Steam [1] Notch: Steam is too closed for Minecraft [2] Minecraft is coming to Xbox 360 [3] Head Asplode! [1] http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/25/valve-ms-needs-to-be-comfortable-in-opening-up-xbox-live/ http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/25/valve-ms-needs-to-be-comfort... [2] http://notch.tumblr.com/post/9550850116/why-no-steam-notch http://notch.tumblr.com/post/9550850116/why-no-steam-notch [3] http://www.ifc.com/news/2011/06/e3-2011-minecraft-kinect-xbox-360.php http://www.ifc.com/news/2011/06/e3-2011-minecraft-kinect-xbo...
- sid0 15y ago
  AFAIK a very restricted version of Minecraft is coming to the 360.
  - georgemcbay 15y ago
    That's true, but then I'm not sure why a less restricted Minecraft on Steam on the PC is a problem... I'd actually buy it then. I do very little PC gaming these days, 100% of it via titles bought on Steam -- people can argue about the DRM issues with it all day long, but the cloud features of it that allow me to access my game library from whichever of my computers I am currently logged into is huge as is the centralized updating, etc. I realize I'm hardly representative of the entire PC gaming world (since I'm barely a PC gamer anymore), but if it isn't on Steam it doesn't really exist for me and I'd love to pay for and play a slightly dumbed down Minecraft.. looks like I'll have to do that on the 360 instead of on the PC.
    - bbq 15y ago
      You can download minecraft from any computer here: http://www.minecraft.net/download.jsp http://www.minecraft.net/download.jsp The client is self-updating.
    - sukuriant 15y ago
      What about Minecraft's distribution method makes you not want to use it? You buy the game and are given an account, then you can use that account anywhere and everywhere on any operating system. You just log in when you start the game.
bryanh 15y ago
I can understand Notch's position here, because really, the only thing Steam can provide Majong with is... eyeballs and distribution? Some sort of community? I don't know, but I don't think Minecraft needs any help with those.
- unwind 15y ago
  Nit-pick: it's "Mojang", not "Majong". The latter is almost a classical board game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahjong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahjong), the former is most probably the Swedish word "mojäng" but with our exotic dots removed for a change. "Mojäng", btw, means roughly "gizmo", or "contraption".
  - bryanh 15y ago
    Ah, thanks!
jroes 15y ago
Is there some crevice here that can be made into a startup? A digital distribution platform for indie game devs who want more freedom with what they are selling?
- spacemanaki 15y ago
  It's not really a platform, but I think that's close to what the company formed around the Humble Indie Bundle is doing. I think all of their releases have been DRM free and without any other strings attached, but I actually have no idea what the terms are like for the individual game dev companies. So I think the answer is probably "yes".
  - ido 15y ago
    The humble bundle is anomalously well performing, but they sell a couple of dozen games per year, each in batches of 5-6 that only sell for 2 weeks. Steam sell a couple of hundreds indie games (out of many thousands currently on the market) throughout the year. I think the HIB is by design not a service that the average indie (or even the exceptionally good indie) can get on.
- ido 15y ago
  There are already many of these out there. Let's say they are all pretty sub-optimal both from a player's and a developer's perspective.
  - TillE 15y ago
    Precisely. Desura and the rest are a bit disappointing. There's a huge opportunity to make something not entirely unlike the Mac App Store, but for PC games. Keep it simple and open, with few rules and reasonably low fees. And no DRM. As a developer and a player, that's what I want. A package manager with a payment system and a store front, basically. You can add achievements and friend lists and the rest later.
    - daeken 15y ago
flyosity 15y ago
Honest question from an iPhone developer... I know many people on HN are rooting for walled gardens to fail (App Store) and for openness to triumph. Do these same people willingly use Steam and think it's great? Isn't Steam's delivery platform for games and the App Store's delivery platform for iOS apps pretty much the same concept? If someone is against the App Store on principle, shouldn't they also be against Steam and not use it?
- skymt 15y ago
  Steam is not the only way to distribute Windows games.
- wmf 15y ago
  A big problem with the iOS App Store is that it's a monopoly.
  - zaphar 15y ago
    While I also dislike the walled garden approach of the IOS App Store I feel I should point out that it's only a monopoly if you define a monopoly narrowly. E.G it's only a monopoly on the iOS family of devices which is hardly a monopoly on installing apps on mobile devices. It may be a large chunk of the market but there are still competitors with a sizeable chunk themselves. Walled Garden != Monopoly
    - rmc 15y ago
      It is a monopoly on installing software on iOS. Steam does not have a monopoly on installing software on Windows.
      - niklas_a 15y ago
        But iOS is only 18% of all mobile devices. Windows is 90% of all laptops/desktops. You are not comparing oranges with oranges.
        15y ago
baby 15y ago
I personally added Minecraft in my steam's library so I can launch it from steam and people can see when I'm playing Minecraft. The only shortcoming is, if you are not on your main computer you have to download the game from minecraft.net and not steam. Is it really a huge hassle?
FredBrach 15y ago
But he is not saying the truth. The truth is: his game have enough success to not be in steam.

197 points by sorbus 15y ago

Sounds like good reasons, to me. They're a company with on-the-edge games and they can't afford to be held back. I'm actually quite surprised that Valve has -any- say in what they do on their own website, or what they implement in the game. I could understand having to implement certain features (like not crashing with the Steam overlay) but to prevent features, marketing, non-game sales, or anything else that doesn't directly affect Valve? Inconceivable.

AngryParsley 15y ago
You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Apple and XBLA have similar restrictions about interaction outside of their walled gardens. There are good reasons for this: Preventing fraud (they trust their credit card processing much more than some random app developer), filtering objectionable content for those under 18, ensuring a certain minimum standard of quality, etc. Also sorry, I accidentally downvoted you when I meant to upvote you. (Can someone please move those arrows farther apart?)
- wccrawford 15y ago
  Actually, I'm still pretty sure Apple and XBLA do that because they can make more money, not because they are trying to protect their image. It's still the first time I've seen anyone say that physical goods based on the game were a problem. I really can't quite believe that. In-game stuff, yeah, I can see it. Ratings and whatnot. But I don't think Mojang/Notch would have a problem on the ratings end of things, unless the ratings board was out of control. Still, I could see him not taking the chance.
- mambodog 15y ago
  Can someone please move those arrows farther apart? You could try this Stylebot style I made: http://stylebot.me/styles/248 http://stylebot.me/styles/248

shoota 15y ago

Then why are they bringing Minecraft to the XBOX 360 which is a much more locked down platform than steam?

doctoboggan 15y ago
Steam is merely a new distribution system for a platform Notch has already shipped on while the XBOX 360 is a totally new platform with its own required distribution system.
- danso 15y ago
  Wonder how well this is going to go...I bought the Orange Box for the 360 when it first came out. TF2 has not seen any of the updates that the PC has had for the past 3 years.
pavel_lishin 15y ago
They have an alternative to using Steam on PCs - they can release their own binaries, or source. They don't really have such an alternative on the XBox.
niklas_a 15y ago
Because Microsoft gave Mojang an incentive, eg money? Because all PC gamers can already get Minecraft but XBOX gamers cannot?

mcantor 15y ago

I really admire how much Notch seems to understand opposing viewpoints that most people would simply make inflammatory posts about. His diplomacy here, as well as with Bethesda, has been stellar: Not "Steam is a DRM-ridden mess that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, bwa ha ha!", but instead, "I understand why they'd want to control their platform." Not "Bethesda are an Orwellian corporate giant trying to crush the little guy, bwa ha ha!", but instead, "This is probably just lawyers being lawyers." Never a bridge burned. What respect and maturity! Hats off to you, Notch. I'm proud to be a part of the same community of developers as you.

streptomycin 15y ago
http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp > I'm not very happy with the draconian nature of (L)GPL
- culturestate 15y ago
  That you can point to that quote as the most inflammatory thing Notch has said just reinforces OP's point.
  - mcantor 15y ago
    Thanks for helpin' a brotha out!
  - streptomycin 15y ago
    I have no idea if it's the most inflammatory thing he's said. I don't know much about him other than he wrote a video game I've never played. I just saw http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2938141 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2938141 reference "openness" and was wondering if Minecraft was actually open source, as I didn't think it was. So I googled for license info, and the first thing I found was a quote that wouldn't be out of place in any typical Linux nerd flamewar. And then I saw the comment about Notch being so respectful and civil and whatnot, and I luled and posted the flame inducing quote. Not surprisingly, flames ensued.

daniel_reetz 15y ago

This is how the battle for openness is won. Not by endless online argument, but by building stuff. Stuff that, by virtue of its openness and flexibility, is too awesome to be needlessly and arbitrarily constrained. Beats the shit out of dogma. Good on ya, Notch.

streptomycin 15y ago
The battle for openness is won by building proprietary software?
- omouse 15y ago
  He's been saying that eventually it'll be open-source, once it gets a 1.0 version? I don't know, maybe it's time to bug him some more about it...
  - doctoboggan 15y ago
    No he said it will be open source when he feels it's not making any more money. You can find this (or atleast use to be able to find it) on minecraft.net Edit: Source >Once sales start dying and a minimum time has passed, I will release the game source code as some kind of open source. http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
    Presume that he was only saying that to string along the people that would not have been otherwise interested, like the burgeoning community of open-source hackers working on various Minecraft tools.
    - Raphael 15y ago
      Does he have any history of open sourcing his software?

bstar77 15y ago

I really hope Notch comes up with something more interesting than capes for the Minecraft market. I could see something like a robust world generator being extremely interesting, but premium hats and capes has to be one of the stupidest concepts in the history of gaming. I don't like DLC's either, but I guess I just don't like any games enough to care. What I'm trying to say is that I'd like minecraft to stay in it's current innocent state. Perhaps if it grows like World of Warcraft did it will make sense, but it's a tough sell for me now. The simplicity is what makes it so charming.

fletchowns 15y ago
premium hats and capes has to be one of the stupidest concepts in the history of gaming. Apparently you are unaware of the runaway success of the Mann Co Store in TF2, which has done so well that TF2 is now Free-to-Play. Hats are among the variety of items that are sold on the Mann Co Store.
- thestoicjester 15y ago
  Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's not stupid.
  - masklinn 15y ago
    If it works, how's it stupid?
    - corin_ 15y ago
      Public opinion is not always synonymous with right/moral/good/whatever. So from a subjective point of view, I would agree that it is a stupid point of view. And I actually think that a poll of gamers, not just TF2 players, would give you the same answer. However from a business point of view, certainly not a stupid view, since (as you said) it does actually work. Depends what you're trying to judge, the concept for gamers or the concept as a business plan.
    - xentronium 15y ago

georgemcbay 15y ago

Valve: Xbox 360 is too closed for Steam [1] Notch: Steam is too closed for Minecraft [2] Minecraft is coming to Xbox 360 [3] Head Asplode! [1] http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/25/valve-ms-needs-to-be-comfortable-in-opening-up-xbox-live/ http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/25/valve-ms-needs-to-be-comfort... [2] http://notch.tumblr.com/post/9550850116/why-no-steam-notch http://notch.tumblr.com/post/9550850116/why-no-steam-notch [3] http://www.ifc.com/news/2011/06/e3-2011-minecraft-kinect-xbox-360.php http://www.ifc.com/news/2011/06/e3-2011-minecraft-kinect-xbo...

sid0 15y ago
AFAIK a very restricted version of Minecraft is coming to the 360.
- georgemcbay 15y ago
  That's true, but then I'm not sure why a less restricted Minecraft on Steam on the PC is a problem... I'd actually buy it then. I do very little PC gaming these days, 100% of it via titles bought on Steam -- people can argue about the DRM issues with it all day long, but the cloud features of it that allow me to access my game library from whichever of my computers I am currently logged into is huge as is the centralized updating, etc. I realize I'm hardly representative of the entire PC gaming world (since I'm barely a PC gamer anymore), but if it isn't on Steam it doesn't really exist for me and I'd love to pay for and play a slightly dumbed down Minecraft.. looks like I'll have to do that on the 360 instead of on the PC.
  - bbq 15y ago
    You can download minecraft from any computer here: http://www.minecraft.net/download.jsp http://www.minecraft.net/download.jsp The client is self-updating.
  - sukuriant 15y ago
    What about Minecraft's distribution method makes you not want to use it? You buy the game and are given an account, then you can use that account anywhere and everywhere on any operating system. You just log in when you start the game.

bryanh 15y ago

I can understand Notch's position here, because really, the only thing Steam can provide Majong with is... eyeballs and distribution? Some sort of community? I don't know, but I don't think Minecraft needs any help with those.

unwind 15y ago
Nit-pick: it's "Mojang", not "Majong". The latter is almost a classical board game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahjong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahjong), the former is most probably the Swedish word "mojäng" but with our exotic dots removed for a change. "Mojäng", btw, means roughly "gizmo", or "contraption".
- bryanh 15y ago
  Ah, thanks!

jroes 15y ago

Is there some crevice here that can be made into a startup? A digital distribution platform for indie game devs who want more freedom with what they are selling?

spacemanaki 15y ago
It's not really a platform, but I think that's close to what the company formed around the Humble Indie Bundle is doing. I think all of their releases have been DRM free and without any other strings attached, but I actually have no idea what the terms are like for the individual game dev companies. So I think the answer is probably "yes".
- ido 15y ago
  The humble bundle is anomalously well performing, but they sell a couple of dozen games per year, each in batches of 5-6 that only sell for 2 weeks. Steam sell a couple of hundreds indie games (out of many thousands currently on the market) throughout the year. I think the HIB is by design not a service that the average indie (or even the exceptionally good indie) can get on.
ido 15y ago
There are already many of these out there. Let's say they are all pretty sub-optimal both from a player's and a developer's perspective.
- TillE 15y ago
  Precisely. Desura and the rest are a bit disappointing. There's a huge opportunity to make something not entirely unlike the Mac App Store, but for PC games. Keep it simple and open, with few rules and reasonably low fees. And no DRM. As a developer and a player, that's what I want. A package manager with a payment system and a store front, basically. You can add achievements and friend lists and the rest later.
  - daeken 15y ago

flyosity 15y ago

Honest question from an iPhone developer... I know many people on HN are rooting for walled gardens to fail (App Store) and for openness to triumph. Do these same people willingly use Steam and think it's great? Isn't Steam's delivery platform for games and the App Store's delivery platform for iOS apps pretty much the same concept? If someone is against the App Store on principle, shouldn't they also be against Steam and not use it?

skymt 15y ago
Steam is not the only way to distribute Windows games.
wmf 15y ago
A big problem with the iOS App Store is that it's a monopoly.
- zaphar 15y ago
  While I also dislike the walled garden approach of the IOS App Store I feel I should point out that it's only a monopoly if you define a monopoly narrowly. E.G it's only a monopoly on the iOS family of devices which is hardly a monopoly on installing apps on mobile devices. It may be a large chunk of the market but there are still competitors with a sizeable chunk themselves. Walled Garden != Monopoly
  - rmc 15y ago
    It is a monopoly on installing software on iOS. Steam does not have a monopoly on installing software on Windows.
    - niklas_a 15y ago
      But iOS is only 18% of all mobile devices. Windows is 90% of all laptops/desktops. You are not comparing oranges with oranges.
      - 15y ago

baby 15y ago

I personally added Minecraft in my steam's library so I can launch it from steam and people can see when I'm playing Minecraft. The only shortcoming is, if you are not on your main computer you have to download the game from minecraft.net and not steam. Is it really a huge hassle?

FredBrach 15y ago

But he is not saying the truth. The truth is: his game have enough success to not be in steam.