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I don't disagree that is their publicly stated reason for the limitation. Them having the ulterior motive of stifling PWAs on iOS and competition for mobile Saf

I don't disagree that is their publicly stated reason for the limitation. Them having the ulterior motive of stifling PWAs on iOS and competition for mobile Safari is a common theory. Whether they do have ulterior motives or not, the effect is that innovation is stifled.

zepto 5y ago
PWA’s aren’t ‘innovation’. Apps can do far more than PWAs.
- LocalH 5y ago
  I believe the stifling of innovation the parent comment refers to is that of browser engines, not of PWAs.
  - zepto 5y ago
    It’s not innovation if it’s just catching up to what another platform has been able to do all along.
    - ygjb 5y ago
      In a walled garden, the ability to for the user to do what they want, where they want is perceived as innovation.
      - zepto 5y ago
        The user can’t do what they want where they want on the web. The web is an adware and privacy destroying machine.
        smoldesu 5y ago
        > The user can’t do what they want where they want on the web. The web is an adware and privacy destroying machine. Sounds like you're setting a double standard when Apple also runs ads on their devices[0] as well as selling their user's private data[1] [0] https://stevestreza.com/2020/02/17/ios-adware/ https://stevestreza.com/2020/02/17/ios-adware/ [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/26/apple-italy-fine-user-data-commercial-gain/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/26/apple-italy-fine-user-d...
        zepto 5y ago
        > Sounds like you're setting a double standard when Apple also runs ads on their devices[0] as well as selling their user's private data[1] Anyone who claims those are equivalent to what is going on on the web is being dishonest. Neither of the articles even claims that Apple was “selling user data”, so that’s a straight up lie. I can’t help you if you are going to post links that don’t say what you claim they are saying.
- tata71 5y ago
  Really? Why did Spotify and Pax Labs make PWAs again?
  - zepto 5y ago
    Good question- what innovation did they bring?
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    No idea about Pax Labs. Spotify creates native apps for everything. "PWA" aka the web player is there for devices that don't have a native app yet, and for embedding.
dijit 5y ago
And yet: Steve Jobs wanted PWA's (or something similar) in the beginning and begrudgingly made an App Store. Yes, I know the circumstances are different, but I do think it's ironic.
- progbits 5y ago
  I guess the grudge went away as the billions started pouring in.
- burnte 5y ago
  That was just a cover for the fact that the app store infrastructure wasn't ready and they weren't even certain the iPhone was going to take off. They only had so much engineering talent and money, and it went into the phone itself. They had been working on the beginnings of app franeworks and the store before launch. The huge response to the iphone caused them to both lower the price (to widen the potential market once it would be wildly profitable) and increase the speed/budget of the app infrastructure engineering.
- wnevets 5y ago
  > And yet: Steve Jobs wanted PWA's (or something similar) in the beginning and begrudgingly made an App Store. or it was just the typical double speak from Jobs until they were able to launch their walled garden. Anyone else remember when iPhone users were told they were holding the iPhone wrong during Antennagate? [0] [0] https://www.engadget.com/2010-06-24-apple-responds-over-iphone-4-reception-issues-youre-holding-th.html https://www.engadget.com/2010-06-24-apple-responds-over-ipho...
dmitriid 5y ago
>Them having the ulterior motive of stifling PWAs >the effect is that innovation is stifled. There's no such thing as PWA. There are several dozen of standards, and any combination of them is called PWAs by various people. And quite a few of those combinations work perfectly fine on Apple devices. What's worse is that too many of those standards are extremely badly designed (service workers) or are pure Chrome-only "standards" rammed through standards bodies (Bluetooth, HID etc.).
- tata71 5y ago
  Supporting manifests to "install" a webapp to my home screen isn't something difficult for Apple/Safari team. They just don't get their cut from it, so, not a priority.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    According to web.dev, the Chrome propaganda site: --- start quote --- Talking about mobile phones and tablets, a Progressive Web App is installable with offline capabilities using the following browsers and app stores: - iOS and iPadOS Safari (since iOS 11.3), AppStore (since iOS/iPadOS 14, with some limitations), Mobile Configuration for enterprise distribution. --- end quote ---
R0b0t1 5y ago
US antitrust law is based on tests of harm to the consumer (though most people do not know this nor about its application due to lack of enforcement). Apple frames everything they do as positive for the consumer to throw up chaff that makes consumer harm harder to quantify for people who don't know better.
- pydry 5y ago
  Same as https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/2/21161271/apple-settlement-500-million-throttling-batterygate-class-action-lawsuit https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/2/21161271/apple-settlement-...

zepto 5y ago

PWA’s aren’t ‘innovation’. Apps can do far more than PWAs.

LocalH 5y ago
I believe the stifling of innovation the parent comment refers to is that of browser engines, not of PWAs.
- zepto 5y ago
  It’s not innovation if it’s just catching up to what another platform has been able to do all along.
  - ygjb 5y ago
    In a walled garden, the ability to for the user to do what they want, where they want is perceived as innovation.
    - zepto 5y ago
      The user can’t do what they want where they want on the web. The web is an adware and privacy destroying machine.
      - smoldesu 5y ago
        > The user can’t do what they want where they want on the web. The web is an adware and privacy destroying machine. Sounds like you're setting a double standard when Apple also runs ads on their devices[0] as well as selling their user's private data[1] [0] https://stevestreza.com/2020/02/17/ios-adware/ https://stevestreza.com/2020/02/17/ios-adware/ [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/26/apple-italy-fine-user-data-commercial-gain/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/26/apple-italy-fine-user-d...
        zepto 5y ago
        > Sounds like you're setting a double standard when Apple also runs ads on their devices[0] as well as selling their user's private data[1] Anyone who claims those are equivalent to what is going on on the web is being dishonest. Neither of the articles even claims that Apple was “selling user data”, so that’s a straight up lie. I can’t help you if you are going to post links that don’t say what you claim they are saying.
tata71 5y ago
Really? Why did Spotify and Pax Labs make PWAs again?
- zepto 5y ago
  Good question- what innovation did they bring?
- dmitriid 5y ago
  No idea about Pax Labs. Spotify creates native apps for everything. "PWA" aka the web player is there for devices that don't have a native app yet, and for embedding.

dijit 5y ago

And yet: Steve Jobs wanted PWA's (or something similar) in the beginning and begrudgingly made an App Store. Yes, I know the circumstances are different, but I do think it's ironic.

progbits 5y ago
I guess the grudge went away as the billions started pouring in.
burnte 5y ago
That was just a cover for the fact that the app store infrastructure wasn't ready and they weren't even certain the iPhone was going to take off. They only had so much engineering talent and money, and it went into the phone itself. They had been working on the beginnings of app franeworks and the store before launch. The huge response to the iphone caused them to both lower the price (to widen the potential market once it would be wildly profitable) and increase the speed/budget of the app infrastructure engineering.
wnevets 5y ago
> And yet: Steve Jobs wanted PWA's (or something similar) in the beginning and begrudgingly made an App Store. or it was just the typical double speak from Jobs until they were able to launch their walled garden. Anyone else remember when iPhone users were told they were holding the iPhone wrong during Antennagate? [0] [0] https://www.engadget.com/2010-06-24-apple-responds-over-iphone-4-reception-issues-youre-holding-th.html https://www.engadget.com/2010-06-24-apple-responds-over-ipho...

dmitriid 5y ago

>Them having the ulterior motive of stifling PWAs >the effect is that innovation is stifled. There's no such thing as PWA. There are several dozen of standards, and any combination of them is called PWAs by various people. And quite a few of those combinations work perfectly fine on Apple devices. What's worse is that too many of those standards are extremely badly designed (service workers) or are pure Chrome-only "standards" rammed through standards bodies (Bluetooth, HID etc.).

tata71 5y ago
Supporting manifests to "install" a webapp to my home screen isn't something difficult for Apple/Safari team. They just don't get their cut from it, so, not a priority.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  According to web.dev, the Chrome propaganda site: --- start quote --- Talking about mobile phones and tablets, a Progressive Web App is installable with offline capabilities using the following browsers and app stores: - iOS and iPadOS Safari (since iOS 11.3), AppStore (since iOS/iPadOS 14, with some limitations), Mobile Configuration for enterprise distribution. --- end quote ---

R0b0t1 5y ago

US antitrust law is based on tests of harm to the consumer (though most people do not know this nor about its application due to lack of enforcement). Apple frames everything they do as positive for the consumer to throw up chaff that makes consumer harm harder to quantify for people who don't know better.

pydry 5y ago
Same as https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/2/21161271/apple-settlement-500-million-throttling-batterygate-class-action-lawsuit https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/2/21161271/apple-settlement-...