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JetBrains Fleet: The Next-Generation IDE by JetBrains
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago@dang could have merged this thread with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377515
- mdaniel 5y agoIIRC the advice is to email hn@ycombinator.com because the "at" notation does nothing on this website
- applgo443 5y agoWhy would anyone need real-time collaboration in IDE? Is it helpful?
- ygra 5y agoIt's quite useful for pair-programming, especially remotely (but some colleagues have started doing this in the office as well, since it means that each paired programmer also has their own workplace and can look stuff up without disturbing the other), also reviews. Especially helpful for one project I was working on at the time was VS Code's ability to also share local servers with the participants (terminals as well, but never needed that so far).
- foo42 5y agoremote pairing.
- polski-g 5y agoThis looks great. Python remote debugging was very clunky.
- SiriusLi 5y agoAppears to me as a response to VS Code's remote capabilities.
- hhariri 5y agoWe've announced Remote Development support today https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/introducing-remote-development-for-jetbrains-ides/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/introducing-remot...
- noworriesnate 5y agoCool! What's the relationship between JetBrains Fleet, JetBrains Projector[1], and Remote Development? [1] https://lp.jetbrains.com/projector/?utm_source=product&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=TBA https://lp.jetbrains.com/projector/?utm_source=product&utm_m...
- filereaper 5y agoYes, I'm on the EAP builds and was confused by this exact set of overlapping products. It would be nice if JetBrains added a feature matrix or disambiguated when and where each product is suitable for. Also obligatory: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
- tomjen3 5y agoThat sounds awesome. One point though - VS Code also allows you to setup a reproducable dev environment locally or through an SSH connection. It isn't clear to me based on the video if that feature is exclusive to Space or not.
- lozenge 5y agoAnd VS Code's hosted offering (VSCode.dev and GitHub Codespaces). Fleet doesn't seem to run in the browser which could offer a better UX. The remote capabilities also look to be more seamless as VS Code is still local by default and even after you connect remotely, it still mostly offers to open/browse local files (which could be considered a pro)
- fxtentacle 5y agoThis nicely shows why I like my JetBrains IDEs so much: They look at what is successful and then they don't mindlessly clone the product, but they cherry-pick the core reasons why it is successful. I have also observed that cloud coding environments (e.g. AWS Cloud9) have become more popular and I totally get why. Collaboration is easy and you can have a Linux runtime close to your production servers even though your programmers use Windows and Mac laptops. But I've always felt icky about putty my source code into some else's hands because who knows how trustworthy EC2 really is when you're working for an Amazon competitor ;) Or more generally, plenty of European companies have general rules that forbid you to put EU data onto US servers. So I'm happy to see that JetBrains has reproduced the collaboration and Linux runtime features, while still allowing me to self-host things on a server that I fully control.
- gjvc 5y agoBut, out of the box, the interactive performance is awful, and getting worse with each version.
- nikitaga 5y agoMeanwhile IntelliJ is rotting with months-old bugs that render entire features useless, with no fixes and no ETAs in sight. The only product that I pay money for that constantly, on almost every release, pains me with new bugs, a good portion of which are never fixed. I thought about using other Jetbrains products like DataGrip (and now this Fleet), but I'm not going to invest even more into a company that simply refuses to fix bugs and regressions.
- hhariri 5y agoIntelliJ IDEA along with the platform is the largest team at JetBrains and we're constantly working on bugs and features. If you can please point me to the issues you're referring to in YouTrack, I can check the status.
- thrower123 5y agoThere's been a long-standing issue in Rider and also Webstorm where you try to search globally with Ctrl-Shift-F, and the search UI comes up with the searchbar unfocused and pre-filled with something random. You type what you avtually want to search for, and it either goes nowhere, or tacks onto the end of whatever garbage was pre-populated in the search bar.
- prigara 5y agoThis sounds like this one: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-201301 https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-201301 It's a third-party issue that we, unfortunately, can't properly address on our side but there's a workaround available.
- thrower123 5y agoNah, it's not that - this is on Windows. If some text is highlighted, the Ctrl-Shift-F dialog will populate with that text, and it will be focused and selected. If nothing is highlighted in the editor, then it uses some random bit of text from the search history buffer, and does not focus the input.
- throwaway4good 5y agoIs it (still) implemented in Java? (Not that JS electron is necessarily lighter ..)
- hhariri 5y agoIt's based on the JVM (Kotlin) and parts of it with Rust.
- jpe90 5y agoIs the JVM portion still using Swing? And can you share any details about what you're using Rust for?
- hhariri 5y agoWe'll be publishing a blog post with more detailed information soon.
- jpe90 5y agoAwesome, looking forward to it. I hope Clojure/Scala wind up getting supported in the future, I'd love to try it out :) Keep up the good work!
- denofevil 5y agoBriefly: no, it's a custom reactive UI framework similar to Jetpack Compose. Rust is used for native operations such as accessing file system, launching processes, etc
- jpe90 5y agoInteresting that you would use Rust for those operations since the JVM was already presumably giving you cross-platform implementations. Was that a significant performance bottleneck that got alleviated by using Rust, or was there another reason?
- suyash 5y agoThis is nice, would love to also use it for Android development along with Node.JS, Server side Java etc instead of using Android Studio seperately.
- DrBazza 5y agoI'd like to know how it works on lower spec hardware (from, say, 5-7 years ago). Will it also be able to load existing IDEA plugins?
- oaiey 5y agoDid I understand it right, that the IDE is still not web based? Not that I am a particular fan of web based apps, however, there are very significant use cases involved like hosting a JetBrains powered editor in the web.
- albertzeyer 5y agoThis looks very interesting. This was almost overdue. Since the beginning of Covid, the need for good remote code development raised quite a bit (at least for many people I know, including our team). When compared to VS Code and its remote editing over SSH, IntelliJ was really lacking. I know of a couple of people who went away from PyCharm just because of this. Related reports: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/PY-19752 https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/PY-19752, https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-226455 https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-226455 I tried Code With Me but this seems limited to 10 minutes in the free version or so, and also not really intended for remote editing but more for pair programming. > hosted in Space What does this mean? I have not really explored this so far. Can I host private own Space instances? I can imagine this would be a requirement in many environments. Is Space an alternative to GitHub or other hosting solutions? We would not want to move our code, issues and internal project management over to some other platform. We just want good remote editing support. Will there be a free community version of Fleet? Anyway, I applied for an invitation to Fleet Preview. Maybe I can get a chance soon to try it out.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago> When compared to VS Code and its remote editing over SSH, IntelliJ was really lacking. I know of a couple of people who went away from PyCharm just because of this. What issues did they have? PyCharm in particular has had a "remote interpreter" feature for a while which works quite well. The text is edited locally but the interpreter and libraries are installed on the remote end. It then brings back whatever it needs for code analysis, so performance when editing is the same as local dev. The story isn't so great for other languages, though.
- indemnity 5y agoCan it finally do something like .vscode/settings.json so that everyone on the team doesn’t have to do manual setup steps or download a settings file from somewhere? Opening a project should bring with it all of the conventions for working on that project, along with plugins also. Bonus points for auto format on save and other style enforcement tools to remove pointless nit picking from the PR process and focus on the intent.
- sam_lowry_ 5y agoCheck https://editorconfig.org/ https://editorconfig.org/
- pauleveritt 5y agoYes, there is a .fleet folder with JSON files.
- Sosh101 5y agoAm I the only one that doesn't like this trend of centralised/cloud IDEs?
- Philip-J-Fry 5y agoWhy do you think this is a centralised/cloud IDE? It still runs on your machine. But the architecture it's built on means that it can run anywhere. A similar architecture to VS Code where you can deploy the VS Code server in a docker container or a remote server and run the UI on your PC. You can still run the entire thing on your PC if you wish. So long as they never remove the ability to run locally (they would be insane to ever do that), then I welcome this modular architecture that embraces standards like LSP.
- pjmlp 5y agoBeing old enough to have used thin terminals, they aren't insane, plenty of industries don't allow for local development.
- Philip-J-Fry 5y agoYes, but if they ever removed the ability to run locally altogether then they would be insane. Because there's plenty of people that do development on their local machine.
- pauleveritt 5y agoFYI, we haven't removed local. I'm demoing it in our booth at re:Invent, for Python with Django, in Fleet.
- tomjen3 5y agoMore to the point: you don't want to take your n-core x-gpu machine speced for machine learning under your arm to the meeting. But you would want to bring your thin-and-light machine with a remote ide session to that machine.
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- jlengrand 5y agoI'm super duper happy to see this coming. Was getting worried about the communication about light code editors in the past and how those users don't understand what a good IDE is [1]. I very much welcome Jetbrains getting into the vscode / codespace / gitpod space, and creating a rocking product. Looking this one with a lot of attention. [1] https://twitter.com/fbricon/status/1308165808506507267?s=20 https://twitter.com/fbricon/status/1308165808506507267?s=20
- da39a3ee 5y agoIt’s funny that the person who wrote the copy for the webpage thought that “does X in seconds” was a good way to describe the speed of a modern text editor.
- sirsinsalot 5y agoI get a horrible feeling in my stomach when I see these "remote" IDE options. I am very sure that they have their benefits, coding from a thin-client machine and having an "always on" session in the cloud ... But it feels like a slow errosion of our control and ownership of our tools. Where everything is becoming a rent-seeking opportunity and good tools are made available for a monthly rent. Personally I like having my whole build system, IDE, CI/CD on a machine I work at. I get this might not be for everyone, but I think we need to be careful what we give up long-term for these conveniences. Granted, I could just use VI and a terminal and nobody is forcing anyone to use anything ... but like many things, they are not like-choices. I depend on my tools, and the fewer dependencies to paid-montly SaaS features the better.
- brundolf 5y agoI think it's the classic efficiency tradeoff. Centralizing these tools is more efficient for the vendor, for the IT department, for users. It streamlines a bunch of things. But the tradeoff is increased risk: a single point of failure, a reduction in agency, etc. There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this question; it depends on the individual case (not just the product, but the customer)
- sirsinsalot 5y agoThe track record with these centralisation trends is that standalone tools get less and less features and attention then die out, leaving little choice. I'd hate to see the existing IDEs like pycharm die
- flashgordon 5y agoInteresting. Would/could this be a motivating function for open source alternatives?
- bob1029 5y ago> I get a horrible feeling in my stomach when I see these "remote" IDE options. Same here. For me, it is the understanding that every bit of this 'convenience' is adding overhead and latency to what should ultimately just be a text editor with some degree of real-time feedback. I can barely tolerate RDP on a local LAN setup for writing code. Across the internet is a joke, especially if some corporate VPN is in the middle. Remote tools are totally acceptable when a human isn't in the loop on every frame update. The laws of physics are never going to give us a win-win here. If you want remote tooling + cake (i.e., a low-latency UI experience that doesn't live local), you will need to start deploying this stuff closer to the users' physical locations.
- crustycoder 5y agoI'd rather they fixed the remote development in IntelliJ first. You can sort of (ab)use the remote deployment feature in Ultimate for it, but it's clearly not intended for that. And it's extremely clunky - for example the ability to exclude files from syncing is completely underpowered. And why the hell is selecting files yet another different way of doing what's basically the same task as elsewhere? I'd suggest they should be using the File Scopes feature except it's terminally useless, with it's wierd-ass, barely documented and inadequate syntax. I've never managed to get it to work adequately. There seems to be a common failing with JetBrains product development, they try to rush out as many different features as possible, presumably for the purposes of marketing "tick lists", but many of them are poorly designed, bug ridden and never worked on after v1.0 IntelliJ - because all the alternatives are even worse.
- Invictus0 5y agoI use PyCharm for work and what frustrates me about JetBrains is they're constantly pursuing these greenfield projects while bugs in the IDE that are ten years old are still unresolved. I can't trust them to develop this when their other "new" features like CodeWithMe session-sharing are still very buggy and incomplete.
- nathantotten 5y agoWhile they don’t specifically say what the “language server” is, if it’s the same protocol that powers VS Code[1], this is a big deal. It potentially means that language owners can build tooling that works across IDEs much more easily. Historically, JetBrains seems to have resisted the idea of a standard language protocol (which makes sense as it comes from Microsoft). My guess is it’s becoming impractical to reimplement every language feature for Typescript, C#, Go, etc. Embracing the standard LSP will mean less time spent on low level features and more time building JetBrains only value add. [1] https://microsoft.github.io/language-server-protocol/ https://microsoft.github.io/language-server-protocol/
- Shadonototra 5y agoLSP is trash compared to intellij's tech it is night and day.. i don't understand how people believe LSP is perfect, it is not, the API is broken, it missing a ton of stuff and as a result client implementations are often broken
- tester756 5y agoWhat LSP is missing?
- mmargerum 5y agonow that we have LSP running as an external process I hope they jettisoned java and are instead using C/C++/Skia or something for the editor so it's fast.
- discreteevent 5y agoHow do you know that it is java that is making it slow? Do you work for jetbrains?
- ygra 5y agoAt least with TypeScript, they've been using the official language server for a while. Sadly they still fall back onto their own JS-esque 'guess what this could be' mode in some situations where vanilla TS would have just emitted an error that the respective module could not be found. For C# Rider supports Roslyn analyzers and code fixers as well, though I don't know with what performance impact (as ReSharper isn't based on Roslyn this results in all analysis work being done twice, which can be noticeable).
- codesections 5y ago> It starts up in seconds so you can begin working immediately They and I have a very different idea of what the word "immediately" means
- doodpants 5y ago> We built Fleet to be a fast and lightweight text editor for when you need to quickly browse and edit your code. It starts up in seconds so you can begin working immediately... An editor that takes multiple seconds to start up doesn't strike me as "fast and lightweight".
- scabbycakes 5y agoI've always seen this as a weird argument. Are people just opening and quitting their IDE/editors constantly all day? So what if it takes 30 seconds to start if it's done once or twice a day (or once a week or less in my case). What the heck kind of environment are people working in or mindset are people in when they can't tolerate 8 seconds for their IDE to open? (And then use that as an argument why the IDE is inferior.)
- naomeux 5y agoI believe this is the future; But still, VSCode is the way to go.
- zz865 5y agoDoes anyone know what tech this is built with? React?
- axegon_ 5y agoI am not sure how I feel about this. JetBrains either get things very right or very wrong. At this point I feel like there a pattern: Their desktop applications(IDEs) are usually great. However, my experience with their server-side solutions(teamcity, upsource) has been nothing short of explosive diarrhea. With the "remote" word tossed in there, I'm not entirely optimistic.
- stetrain 5y agoIt's as remote as VS Code is, meaning you can run it entirely locally or as a thin client to a server that's hosted in a VM, docker container, WSL, or a remote server.
- native_samples 5y agoHmm my experiences with TeamCity have been very good.
- denalii 5y agoUsed it at a former job along with YouTrack and UpSource. It was super nice having everything natively integrating with each other. Of course then you deal with the relatively high JB prices for everything (not including IDEs even) and vendor lock.
- axegon_ 5y agoI'll take anything over teamcity. Even jenkins. I don't think I can go any lower than that in this universe.
- native_samples 5y agoWhat is it you dislike so much?
- axegon_ 5y agoCI/CD's must be stupid simple to work with and that's their entire purpose: you should not waste time with clicking and scrolling and dealing with custom setups. Even Jenkins, which is dog shit and I've had to use in the past was light years ahead. Have a look at gitlab, github, circleci and all the big players in the field - the exact same task takes considerably less time, documentation is perfect, whatever you want to achieve is no more than 5 lines of YAML away, the UI isn't something from a 2 year old's sketchbook, the outputs are actually clever enough to work out when and where a test for instance failed and take you directly to the relevant section of the log rather than having to click "show more" and scroll up 20 times. The email notifications it sends are practically useless - they are basically images of the static noise coming from the big bang, except they clutter your inbox. And to think the company was paying close to 3000€ per year for this crap genuinely baffles me when you have an endless amount of free and open source alternatives that actually work.
- noworriesnate 5y agoThere's a lot of focus on how this changes the dev environment, but there's another aspect to this change: - You could use this to remote into a CI build that failed - You could use this to remote into a production environment that crashed. E.g., if an unhandled exception is thrown in a server, the process pauses and waits for a debugger to attach while the API gateway switches to another server. This could merge the concepts of CI, production, and personal dev environment so that the only difference between your dev environments and production is the scale of cloud computing required.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- seniorivn 5y ago>PluginsComing soon and no info on vim shortcuts and keyboard driven workflow
- FloatArtifact 5y agoMy question is how accessibility software will link into such an environment, screen readers etc?
- filereaper 5y agoThe new JetBrains products seem targetted at VSCode and specifically its remote code offerings. I've liked JetBrains and I'm paying their license but the current $249.00 yearly fee is still too high and I fall back to VSCode frequently. The $249.00 fee covers all of their IDEs but I don't need the .NET IDE's if I'm working on JVM languages or CLion or GoLand for instance. I was hoping for something like "Pick 2-3" IDEs for a certain fee, like say $129 for Scala, DataGrip & PyCharm, oriented towards common clusters of vertical stacks devs normally use. I understand that $249 may not be a large amount for many folks here, but JetBrains isn't the only development tool I'm buying and supporting with a yearly license.
- tomjen3 5y agoOut of curiosity, what other tools are you paying for?
- technobabbler 5y agoFWIW if you're buying it with your own money, the individual subscriptions are much cheaper. They start at $150 or so for Ultimate, I think, and less than that for individual products. Then they get cheaper every year after that (loyalty discount), and you also get an offline key to use with the last version you subbed to even after your sub ends. All in all it's a very fair pricing model. After 3 or 4 years, my annual resub for Phpstorm was like $60/yr. Upgrading to ultimate was like $30 more. Well worth the price. I've tried vscode several times, once every few years. It's getting closer for sure but for now still requires a bunch of extensions and tweaking to approximate the feature set of IntelliJ.
- _abracadabra 5y agoSuper excited for this!
- fgonzag 5y agoIt's invite only, in case anybody was up to give it a spin (like me).
- chkaloon 5y agoJust started using VS Code after years of JetBrains IDEs. Wow, it's like flying through the air vs. the maple syrup feel that JB IDEs have grown to be. Thin client hosting might be their Hail Mary.