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That's plausible, but it's not the whole picture. It may only partially explain some of the problem. We have, in the wealthy west, millions of vaccine-hesistan

That's plausible, but it's not the whole picture. It may only partially explain some of the problem. We have, in the wealthy west, millions of vaccine-hesistant and vaccine-denialist people. I'm not just talking about poor or uneducated people, either. I personally know wealthy, educated, analytical people who have bought into the fearmongering and propaganda. I was shocked to find how deeply skeptical they were. I was even more shocked to be linked to propaganda with hard-to-miss flaws, like the fact that the promoter is not talking on behalf of the AMA, but on behalf of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physic... ... and I'm not even in America. I also know people who got a dose of vaccine, read propaganda, became skeptical and delayed their second dose for a long time. It's not just the poor, the ignorant, or people we've betrayed. It's bigger than that. I don't think anyone fully understands it yet. Watching the people around me has stirred in me many new questions.

teaearlgraycold 5y ago
Is the propaganda really that good? Or did they want to be skeptical to begin with?
- PostOnce 5y ago
  I think it's not a function of quality, but of time and volume; if you hear something enough, you might–if only fleetingly–find yourself asking "what if they're right?", because it's not like it's just one crazy guy, it's a lot of voices.
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
    >> …it’s a lot of voices. A looooot of voices. https://thevaultproject.org/ron-johnson-holds-expert-panel-on-covid-and-shocking-vaccine-injuries/ https://thevaultproject.org/ron-johnson-holds-expert-panel-o...
- gonehome 5y ago
  Most people believe insane things of some form and all of us are usually inconsistent in some way. It might have tighter correlations with economic and education status, but that’s not all of it. Whatever skill allows some to see the signal through the noise while others descend down rabbit holes that lead to delusion is hard to teach. The best community I’ve found that works towards it is the less wrong rationality community, but none of us are immune from cognitive bias or motivated reasoning. It’s all about recognizing it and trying to correct for it in order to struggle closer to the truth. Even so, I worry most people continually exposed to false ideas will eventually get infected by them - even if you have really good tools, it’s hard.
- bluGill 5y ago
  They have been perfecting their message for years in the background. I've watched it start as a very left wing thing, then they discovered that the "freedom" message really resonated with the right wing libertarians about 10 years ago. They have been spreading in that crowd since. Make no mistake, they don't care about you or right/left wing. It might be right wing this time around, but only because they are still looking for a message that will appeal to the left wing as strongly. The biggest spreaders seem to have a supplement store. Follow the money often works very well.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Well millions of people believed the Trump Russia election hacking conspiracy theory despite having no basis in reality and having never seen any evidence for it. Maybe after that was exposed people became a bit more skeptical of such narratives. It follows the same recipe as many social engineering tricks you get taught about in basic corporate security education but it really goes back a long way to low tech confidence tricks and scams -- a huge problem, a sense of urgency, and you mustn't ask questions otherwise you're a bad person. Not saying covid or vaccines are a conspiracy theory, just that it follows and easily recognizable pattern that has been abused in the past. And people recognize patterns even subconsciously.
harry8 5y ago
Oh I'm a /lot/ more contemptuous of idiocy in educated, first world countries, how can one not be? There is a similar thing going on that is far, far less excusable and justifiable. Fauci is still hanging around like a toxic, noxious smell and he is a liar. He tells lies. Says who? Says Fauci himself! And he hasn't been crucified for having done it!! When you tell lies you incur a a debt to the truth, the interest rate is super steep. That is contributing to the problem we are seeing in the USA where an octogenarian un-elected politician like Fauci can fan the flames of vaccination as a partisan issue and be rewarded for it. Justify his "noble" lies all you like (and I can see the case for it even if I /strongly/ disagree). You can't justify keeping him on in a position of authority when that lie is exposed, when his presence fans the flames of mistrust contributing to the biggest problem the USA is facing in Covid policy right now. There's nobody else in the country who can do what Fauci does who isn't covered by that stench? I just don't believe it. He's 80. He should have retired more than a decade ago. When a vaccine hesitant person says the authorities are lying to us, that Fauci is a liar and hasn't had consequences for it we can't actually say that's wrong, because it isn't. That's the bed we're lying in. Any sensible democrat would be looking for a sensible, educated, establishment republican doctor and appoint them to public service and promote them as the number one doctor in the country. Such a republican will exist, thinking they don't is completely mental. (Everyone who disagrees with my political view is crazy style of paranoid mental). [1] "So, why weren't we told to wear masks in the beginning? "Well, the reason for that is that we were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply." [1]https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-directive-coronavirus https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-dire...
babyshake 5y ago
I don't personally believe this, but I know some people who claim that Robert Malone who invented mRNA is saying that the mRNA vaccines are more likely to create worse mutations of the disease. It seems more intuitive that getting vaccinated is the best way to prevent mutations but I'm curious if there is a good response to people who do have these concerns about the mRNA vaccines.
- mintplant 5y ago
  Robert Malone advanced mRNA research and technology, but no one "invented" mRNA. mRNA is a naturally-occurring biological molecule and a key component of protein synthesis.
- Nursie 5y ago
  To echo the other poster - I read a bit about Malone the other day. He definitely helped the tech along at some point, but he has no claim to sole creation of or invention of the mRNA vaccines. He's one of a cast of hundreds or thousands.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  Looks like no one answered your question here. Just tried to shoot your messenger. Was hoping for something more substantial.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- toofy 5y ago
  the fact that this guy claims he invented mRNA gives a strong clue to both his reliability and his reasoning ability.
  - esyir 5y ago
    He doesn't, that's a misquote by the OP. If you look at most citations of such, they talk about his involvement in mRNA tech. However, that's also a long process that involves many people, as most modern scientific endeavors are. He might have played a role, but he certainly didn't single-handedly invent the field.
unclebucknasty 5y ago
>I personally know wealthy, educated, analytical people who have bought into the fearmongering and propaganda Same, including medical professionals who fit this description. It's clearly an emotional and tribal issue at this point. The animating factor of nearly all of this denialism is a narrative of distrust and outright animus for the "establishment" and the organizations that represent it.
- anon428934892 5y ago
  Why should anyone trust the scientific "establishment" which claims to be about truth but is willing to blatantly lie about issues obvious to anyone with a pair of eyes, like race and intelligence. And it even banishes heretics like James Watson.
- esyir 5y ago
  I think this hits the nail on the head. That the academic space is not just dominated, but overtly hostile to right wingers probably worsens this. Why would they trust advice given by people who proclaim their hatred of them?
  - unclebucknasty 5y ago
    >academic space is...overtly hostile to right wingers... >Why would they trust advice given by people who proclaim their hatred of them? 1. It's all institutions, not just academia. 2. The "right winger" narrative seems to be that everyone is overtly hostile to them (media, academia, Hollywood, scientists, health organizations, voting machine manufacturers, pharma companies, Dr. Fauci, Big Bird, etc.), which apparently somehow justifies all sorts of irrational and anti-social behavior. 3. Deciding whether something is factual based on how you think the people communicating it feel about you is flawed, to put it mildly. But, if you can convince someone that it's a valid approach, then you can manipulate them against all reality. I do think that poor critical thinking skills, as exemplified in your rationalization here, do play a major role in how we got here though.
    - esyir 5y ago
logicchains 5y ago
>Watching the people around me has stirred in me many new questions. Have you ever considered they might have a point? More and more data is coming out, like https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.107..., in the highest-impact cardiology journal, showing that the mRNA vaccines are not particularly "safe" by any reasonable interpretation of the word.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  And catching Covid is safe? Funny how you won't hear about the cardiac issues that Covid causes from the fringe crowd But I'll add one thing, it's not only ignorance, it's straight up spite and sadism from the anti-vax crowd Because they will take any BS and try to run it as far as they can with it. Including a 2001 paper like the one it was posted yesterday
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
    Catching covid is definitely not safe if you’re in that tiny minority that is strongly affected, mostly because the NIH advice for the infected is currently ‘Wait until it gets bad enough to go to the hospital’.
    - raverbashing 5y ago
      The "tiny minority" includes obese people, which are which % of Americans again? Though I agree that recommendation to wait is not great.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        That's mostly a reflection of available hospital capacity though.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  I don't read that as them not being safe. They're trying to explain why there's an increase in some symptoms, symptoms we already know about, post vaccine. Sadly I can't dig too much into that paper because the page is being really buggy. But having had three shots now and no symptoms I've stopped really caring much to hear any fear mongering. I'm a lot more concerned by new variants.
seba_dos1 5y ago
> I also know people who got a dose of vaccine, read propaganda, became skeptical and delayed their second dose for a long time. Ironically, if only they were lucky enough to not get infected meanwhile and managed to eventually change their mind, that may actually turn out for the better since additional vaccine doses seem to produce stronger antibody response when delayed.

teaearlgraycold 5y ago

Is the propaganda really that good? Or did they want to be skeptical to begin with?

PostOnce 5y ago
I think it's not a function of quality, but of time and volume; if you hear something enough, you might–if only fleetingly–find yourself asking "what if they're right?", because it's not like it's just one crazy guy, it's a lot of voices.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  >> …it’s a lot of voices. A looooot of voices. https://thevaultproject.org/ron-johnson-holds-expert-panel-on-covid-and-shocking-vaccine-injuries/ https://thevaultproject.org/ron-johnson-holds-expert-panel-o...
gonehome 5y ago
Most people believe insane things of some form and all of us are usually inconsistent in some way. It might have tighter correlations with economic and education status, but that’s not all of it. Whatever skill allows some to see the signal through the noise while others descend down rabbit holes that lead to delusion is hard to teach. The best community I’ve found that works towards it is the less wrong rationality community, but none of us are immune from cognitive bias or motivated reasoning. It’s all about recognizing it and trying to correct for it in order to struggle closer to the truth. Even so, I worry most people continually exposed to false ideas will eventually get infected by them - even if you have really good tools, it’s hard.
bluGill 5y ago
They have been perfecting their message for years in the background. I've watched it start as a very left wing thing, then they discovered that the "freedom" message really resonated with the right wing libertarians about 10 years ago. They have been spreading in that crowd since. Make no mistake, they don't care about you or right/left wing. It might be right wing this time around, but only because they are still looking for a message that will appeal to the left wing as strongly. The biggest spreaders seem to have a supplement store. Follow the money often works very well.
throwawaylinux 5y ago
Well millions of people believed the Trump Russia election hacking conspiracy theory despite having no basis in reality and having never seen any evidence for it. Maybe after that was exposed people became a bit more skeptical of such narratives. It follows the same recipe as many social engineering tricks you get taught about in basic corporate security education but it really goes back a long way to low tech confidence tricks and scams -- a huge problem, a sense of urgency, and you mustn't ask questions otherwise you're a bad person. Not saying covid or vaccines are a conspiracy theory, just that it follows and easily recognizable pattern that has been abused in the past. And people recognize patterns even subconsciously.

harry8 5y ago

Oh I'm a /lot/ more contemptuous of idiocy in educated, first world countries, how can one not be? There is a similar thing going on that is far, far less excusable and justifiable. Fauci is still hanging around like a toxic, noxious smell and he is a liar. He tells lies. Says who? Says Fauci himself! And he hasn't been crucified for having done it!! When you tell lies you incur a a debt to the truth, the interest rate is super steep. That is contributing to the problem we are seeing in the USA where an octogenarian un-elected politician like Fauci can fan the flames of vaccination as a partisan issue and be rewarded for it. Justify his "noble" lies all you like (and I can see the case for it even if I /strongly/ disagree). You can't justify keeping him on in a position of authority when that lie is exposed, when his presence fans the flames of mistrust contributing to the biggest problem the USA is facing in Covid policy right now. There's nobody else in the country who can do what Fauci does who isn't covered by that stench? I just don't believe it. He's 80. He should have retired more than a decade ago. When a vaccine hesitant person says the authorities are lying to us, that Fauci is a liar and hasn't had consequences for it we can't actually say that's wrong, because it isn't. That's the bed we're lying in. Any sensible democrat would be looking for a sensible, educated, establishment republican doctor and appoint them to public service and promote them as the number one doctor in the country. Such a republican will exist, thinking they don't is completely mental. (Everyone who disagrees with my political view is crazy style of paranoid mental). [1] "So, why weren't we told to wear masks in the beginning? "Well, the reason for that is that we were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply." [1]https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-directive-coronavirus https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-dire...

babyshake 5y ago

I don't personally believe this, but I know some people who claim that Robert Malone who invented mRNA is saying that the mRNA vaccines are more likely to create worse mutations of the disease. It seems more intuitive that getting vaccinated is the best way to prevent mutations but I'm curious if there is a good response to people who do have these concerns about the mRNA vaccines.

mintplant 5y ago
Robert Malone advanced mRNA research and technology, but no one "invented" mRNA. mRNA is a naturally-occurring biological molecule and a key component of protein synthesis.
Nursie 5y ago
To echo the other poster - I read a bit about Malone the other day. He definitely helped the tech along at some point, but he has no claim to sole creation of or invention of the mRNA vaccines. He's one of a cast of hundreds or thousands.
artificialLimbs 5y ago
Looks like no one answered your question here. Just tried to shoot your messenger. Was hoping for something more substantial.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
toofy 5y ago
the fact that this guy claims he invented mRNA gives a strong clue to both his reliability and his reasoning ability.
- esyir 5y ago
  He doesn't, that's a misquote by the OP. If you look at most citations of such, they talk about his involvement in mRNA tech. However, that's also a long process that involves many people, as most modern scientific endeavors are. He might have played a role, but he certainly didn't single-handedly invent the field.

unclebucknasty 5y ago

>I personally know wealthy, educated, analytical people who have bought into the fearmongering and propaganda Same, including medical professionals who fit this description. It's clearly an emotional and tribal issue at this point. The animating factor of nearly all of this denialism is a narrative of distrust and outright animus for the "establishment" and the organizations that represent it.

anon428934892 5y ago
Why should anyone trust the scientific "establishment" which claims to be about truth but is willing to blatantly lie about issues obvious to anyone with a pair of eyes, like race and intelligence. And it even banishes heretics like James Watson.
esyir 5y ago
I think this hits the nail on the head. That the academic space is not just dominated, but overtly hostile to right wingers probably worsens this. Why would they trust advice given by people who proclaim their hatred of them?
- unclebucknasty 5y ago
  >academic space is...overtly hostile to right wingers... >Why would they trust advice given by people who proclaim their hatred of them? 1. It's all institutions, not just academia. 2. The "right winger" narrative seems to be that everyone is overtly hostile to them (media, academia, Hollywood, scientists, health organizations, voting machine manufacturers, pharma companies, Dr. Fauci, Big Bird, etc.), which apparently somehow justifies all sorts of irrational and anti-social behavior. 3. Deciding whether something is factual based on how you think the people communicating it feel about you is flawed, to put it mildly. But, if you can convince someone that it's a valid approach, then you can manipulate them against all reality. I do think that poor critical thinking skills, as exemplified in your rationalization here, do play a major role in how we got here though.
  - esyir 5y ago

logicchains 5y ago

>Watching the people around me has stirred in me many new questions. Have you ever considered they might have a point? More and more data is coming out, like https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.107..., in the highest-impact cardiology journal, showing that the mRNA vaccines are not particularly "safe" by any reasonable interpretation of the word.

raverbashing 5y ago
And catching Covid is safe? Funny how you won't hear about the cardiac issues that Covid causes from the fringe crowd But I'll add one thing, it's not only ignorance, it's straight up spite and sadism from the anti-vax crowd Because they will take any BS and try to run it as far as they can with it. Including a 2001 paper like the one it was posted yesterday
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  Catching covid is definitely not safe if you’re in that tiny minority that is strongly affected, mostly because the NIH advice for the infected is currently ‘Wait until it gets bad enough to go to the hospital’.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    The "tiny minority" includes obese people, which are which % of Americans again? Though I agree that recommendation to wait is not great.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      That's mostly a reflection of available hospital capacity though.
staticassertion 5y ago
I don't read that as them not being safe. They're trying to explain why there's an increase in some symptoms, symptoms we already know about, post vaccine. Sadly I can't dig too much into that paper because the page is being really buggy. But having had three shots now and no symptoms I've stopped really caring much to hear any fear mongering. I'm a lot more concerned by new variants.

seba_dos1 5y ago

> I also know people who got a dose of vaccine, read propaganda, became skeptical and delayed their second dose for a long time. Ironically, if only they were lucky enough to not get infected meanwhile and managed to eventually change their mind, that may actually turn out for the better since additional vaccine doses seem to produce stronger antibody response when delayed.