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I was at a Grammy luncheon a number of years ago and I somehow wound up seated with all of the entertainment attorneys for the labels/recording industry/whateve

I was at a Grammy luncheon a number of years ago and I somehow wound up seated with all of the entertainment attorneys for the labels/recording industry/whatever and it was a very interesting/bizarre conversation. I’ve spent much of my adult life (and even pre-adult life), speaking out and writing about the idiocy of those various campaigns to shut down P2P, DRM, etc., and then I was at this industry luncheon with some very nice people who believe the exact opposite of me. Interesting and civil discussions ensued (I was the odd-woman out, both for my position and because I didn’t drive to the Beverly Hills Hotel in a $200,000 car), but I got the sense that as misguided as I personally think they are, many of the lawyers honestly think they are doing the right thing to try to protect against so-called infringement the ways that they do. I’m sure the money is definitely part of it (again, I took an Uber to the luncheon. They had valet service for their $200,000 cars), but I don’t think that’s most of it to be honest. It was helpful for me to meet and talk with people who have the opposite opinion and perspective of me. Not because we changed each other’s minds (my mind wasn’t changed), but because I saw that these were people who really thought they were protecting and fighting for the rights and protections of artists and creators. As I said, it didn’t change my opinion about how misguided and ultimately harmful those fights have been (especially towards the parties they want to protect), but I did at least see that not all of them are evil boogeyman who just want to get money.

mandmandam 5y ago
If their actions are indistinguishable from the actions of evil bogeymen, I do wonder what the real difference is. I think the truly worst people alive right now are really, really fucking charming and 'nice' to have dinner with in a fancy hotel - they get plenty of practice - but if kindly confronted with undeniable evidence of their harms they would immediately rationalize their actions with bullshit, and get as far from you as possible.
- adjkant 5y ago
  I think the issue here is with the conception of "evil". The one shown in most media is incredibly flawed, and it is why the best villians are the ones that can actually argue their point, make you understand where they are coming from, and potentially even come to their side. People are not evil, they are simply acting as all humans do most of the time: in self preservation of some form. What makes a person appear "evil" is simply the situations they have ended up in and the accompanying beliefs and knowledge. > but if kindly confronted with undeniable evidence of their harms they would immediately rationalize their actions with bullshit, and get as far from you as possible. This is not meant to excuse that response, but I do want to point out that it is the rational and "easy" path of response. When people make ideas the core of their personality and survival, threats to those ideas are now personal threats. The path of coming to challenge and change those ideas is a hard road in most cases. It takes a very strong and brave person to change their mind on a core belief. The better way IMO to approach it is to ensure people don't get caught in the position in the first place. Don't make beliefs the center of yourself, make values the center, and choose them carefully and with nuance. It allows you to change course on beliefs or ideas with much less pain and personal internal sacrifice. That needs to start early though, way before anyone at that table sat down for their meal. It's an education issue, an early one at that.
akudha 5y ago
I personally think they are, many of the lawyers honestly think they are doing the right thing They have tons of money, they’re highly educated, well connected individuals, are they not? All they have to do is spend one Saturday reading up. With the money they have, they can even hire researchers to do some original research for them. My guess is that they don’t want to know. Money has a way of suppressing one’s good side. I am having a hard time sympathizing with these lawyers. They go after students, poor people for downloading a song or two. They’re the reason for the sorry state of copyright laws
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > They’re the reason for the sorry state of copyright laws Blaming lawyers for the state of copyright laws is doing a huge service to the legislators that pass them and the lobbyists who write them.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    ...90% of whom are lawyers.
- filmgirlcw 5y ago
  I don’t disagree, but having pressed some of them on those exact issues (not all at that luncheon), it really is similar to talking to district attorneys who often prosecute low-level drug crimes (which I personally find even more egregious). These are people who really are convinced they are doing the right thing. As I said, this doesn’t change my opinion, but it does make having a conversation more productive.
  - Qub3d 5y ago
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair Maybe a bit of a truism, but it is a popular quote for a reason
  - kf6nux 5y ago
    The people in the USA practicing eugenics thought they were doing the right thing. The people in the USA creating concentration camps for the Japanese (a.k.a. internment camps) thought they were doing the right thing. Belief in yourself and your cause is irrelevant. Most people have that regardless of what they do.
donmcronald 5y ago
Most of the piracy sites are super scummy. I can see the appeal in trying to shut them down. I've always wondered how the economics of those setups that push you through a half dozen link shorteners / ad pages with captchas all over the place work. I bet there's ad fraud going on with the captchas being solved for bots that are doing less than respectable things. Look at Kim Dotcom / Mega Upload for an example of who the big winners are in the piracy space. Some of it is big business, so it's easy to see the lawyers' side. I'd still consider myself pro piracy because it creates a floor in terms of how bad big companies can treat us, but there are some participants that deserve to be chased by lawyers.
- superkuh 5y ago
  No. Most of the piracy sites that are public and well known are super scummy. That is because only that kind of scummy income can protect and justify the exposure. Semi-private and private piracy sites are really nice, safe, and have better organization and UI than most big money for profit sites that attempt to distribute the same types of media. What.cd was way less scummy than any large commercial media distribution company.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kmeisthax 5y ago
    Yes, but there's no guarantee that What.cd[0] remains a charismatic defendant in any scenario where they don't get shut down. Nor should the law be written around protecting charismatic defendants. The argument against copyright maximalism should not be made on the basis that "nice" pirate sites can exist - in fact, you should advocate for copyright reform or reduction on the basis of the least tolerable, most scummy site that should be allowed to exist. [0] insert any other non-scummy pirate site here
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  True, but the industry has shown that it need the constant threat of piracy. Ebooks and music are already in a bad state again. I guess with VPN becoming more popular due to increased surveillance it can lead to a renaissance of file sharing.
goodpoint 5y ago
> They had valet service for their $200,000 cars > the lawyers honestly think they are doing the right thing Reminds me of: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair
tokai 5y ago
People work very hard to not see themselves as a villain - especially when they are just that.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

mandmandam 5y ago

If their actions are indistinguishable from the actions of evil bogeymen, I do wonder what the real difference is. I think the truly worst people alive right now are really, really fucking charming and 'nice' to have dinner with in a fancy hotel - they get plenty of practice - but if kindly confronted with undeniable evidence of their harms they would immediately rationalize their actions with bullshit, and get as far from you as possible.

adjkant 5y ago
I think the issue here is with the conception of "evil". The one shown in most media is incredibly flawed, and it is why the best villians are the ones that can actually argue their point, make you understand where they are coming from, and potentially even come to their side. People are not evil, they are simply acting as all humans do most of the time: in self preservation of some form. What makes a person appear "evil" is simply the situations they have ended up in and the accompanying beliefs and knowledge. > but if kindly confronted with undeniable evidence of their harms they would immediately rationalize their actions with bullshit, and get as far from you as possible. This is not meant to excuse that response, but I do want to point out that it is the rational and "easy" path of response. When people make ideas the core of their personality and survival, threats to those ideas are now personal threats. The path of coming to challenge and change those ideas is a hard road in most cases. It takes a very strong and brave person to change their mind on a core belief. The better way IMO to approach it is to ensure people don't get caught in the position in the first place. Don't make beliefs the center of yourself, make values the center, and choose them carefully and with nuance. It allows you to change course on beliefs or ideas with much less pain and personal internal sacrifice. That needs to start early though, way before anyone at that table sat down for their meal. It's an education issue, an early one at that.

akudha 5y ago

I personally think they are, many of the lawyers honestly think they are doing the right thing They have tons of money, they’re highly educated, well connected individuals, are they not? All they have to do is spend one Saturday reading up. With the money they have, they can even hire researchers to do some original research for them. My guess is that they don’t want to know. Money has a way of suppressing one’s good side. I am having a hard time sympathizing with these lawyers. They go after students, poor people for downloading a song or two. They’re the reason for the sorry state of copyright laws

dane-pgp 5y ago
> They’re the reason for the sorry state of copyright laws Blaming lawyers for the state of copyright laws is doing a huge service to the legislators that pass them and the lobbyists who write them.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  ...90% of whom are lawyers.
filmgirlcw 5y ago
I don’t disagree, but having pressed some of them on those exact issues (not all at that luncheon), it really is similar to talking to district attorneys who often prosecute low-level drug crimes (which I personally find even more egregious). These are people who really are convinced they are doing the right thing. As I said, this doesn’t change my opinion, but it does make having a conversation more productive.
- Qub3d 5y ago
  “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair Maybe a bit of a truism, but it is a popular quote for a reason
- kf6nux 5y ago
  The people in the USA practicing eugenics thought they were doing the right thing. The people in the USA creating concentration camps for the Japanese (a.k.a. internment camps) thought they were doing the right thing. Belief in yourself and your cause is irrelevant. Most people have that regardless of what they do.

donmcronald 5y ago

Most of the piracy sites are super scummy. I can see the appeal in trying to shut them down. I've always wondered how the economics of those setups that push you through a half dozen link shorteners / ad pages with captchas all over the place work. I bet there's ad fraud going on with the captchas being solved for bots that are doing less than respectable things. Look at Kim Dotcom / Mega Upload for an example of who the big winners are in the piracy space. Some of it is big business, so it's easy to see the lawyers' side. I'd still consider myself pro piracy because it creates a floor in terms of how bad big companies can treat us, but there are some participants that deserve to be chased by lawyers.

superkuh 5y ago
No. Most of the piracy sites that are public and well known are super scummy. That is because only that kind of scummy income can protect and justify the exposure. Semi-private and private piracy sites are really nice, safe, and have better organization and UI than most big money for profit sites that attempt to distribute the same types of media. What.cd was way less scummy than any large commercial media distribution company.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kmeisthax 5y ago
  Yes, but there's no guarantee that What.cd[0] remains a charismatic defendant in any scenario where they don't get shut down. Nor should the law be written around protecting charismatic defendants. The argument against copyright maximalism should not be made on the basis that "nice" pirate sites can exist - in fact, you should advocate for copyright reform or reduction on the basis of the least tolerable, most scummy site that should be allowed to exist. [0] insert any other non-scummy pirate site here
raxxorrax 5y ago
True, but the industry has shown that it need the constant threat of piracy. Ebooks and music are already in a bad state again. I guess with VPN becoming more popular due to increased surveillance it can lead to a renaissance of file sharing.

goodpoint 5y ago

> They had valet service for their $200,000 cars > the lawyers honestly think they are doing the right thing Reminds me of: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair

tokai 5y ago

People work very hard to not see themselves as a villain - especially when they are just that.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]