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80 maybe, but 91-99 are properly ridiculous. Sure its easy to get it, but it highlights deeper issue I've had since I've started learning french - its not elega

80 maybe, but 91-99 are properly ridiculous. Sure its easy to get it, but it highlights deeper issue I've had since I've started learning french - its not elegant nor easy language, rather a 'spaghetti code' one, a mess of rules and tons of exceptions, and many things defy logic and are there 'because its like that and you have to memorize it'. You can have great talk on B1 level for example in English or German, with French you are still often lost quickly unless everybody else tries hard to dumb it down for you. There is an institute in France hose sole purpose is to guard language, I wonder why they didn't find the motivation to clean it up a bit. It would make it much more attractive for outsiders and make it more global. And its not just me, literally everybody I speak to who attempted to learn french has similar experience. Either they suck it up, face often humiliation from native speakers from their mistakes (its quite something to see senior banking colleagues laughing like little kids and pointing finger at you on a project meeting because you mixed gender of a noun) or often just give up.

aktau 5y ago
This was cleaned up in the Belgian variant of French: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French. - 70 = septante (versus soixante-dix, which is 60-10) - 80 = huitante (versus quatre-vingt, which is 40-20), *EDIT*: wrong, see below. - 90 = nonante (versus quatre-vingt-dix, which is 40-20-10) The article also mentions something interesting I didn't know: > The use of septante for "seventy" and nonante for "ninety", in contrast to Standard French soixante-dix (literally "sixty-ten") and quatre-vingt-dix'("four-twenty-ten"). Those former words occur also in Swiss French. Unlike the Swiss, however, Belgians never use huitante for quatre-vingts ("four twenties"), with the use of octante in the local Brussels dialect as being the only exception. Although they are considered Belgian and Swiss words, septante and nonante were common in France until around the 16th century, when the newer forms began to dominate.[4] *EDIT*: This doesn't appear to be true, Belgian French speakers also say quatre-vingt for 80.
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  It’s the Swiss who fixed it and say huitante. The Belgians say quatre-vingt like the French.
Zababa 5y ago
I don't think "cleaning up" a language talked by so many people in the world is reasonable because some people have trouble learning it. > Either they suck it up, face often humiliation from native speakers from their mistakes (its quite something to see senior banking colleagues laughing like little kids and pointing finger at you on a project meeting because you mixed gender of a noun). I'm not sure if it's a language problem or a people problem. I often encounter people that mix the gender of nouns, and I don't really care about it. It's a lot to learn and not very important. Just like some people don't have a great accent, that's how it is, it doesn't stop people from communicating. Same for the people that I know, unless we're asked we wouldn't bother correcting someone that "le table" is actually "la table" because tables are female. On my side, I find the pronunciation of English to be very hard to learn and to master, and am scared of sounding stupid whenever I talk English, so I avoid it, and end up not being good at it, so I can understand the sentiment.
- ldrndll 5y ago
  If it’s any consolation, I find English pronunciation very difficult, and I’m a native speaker. It surprises me that in my thirties I still regularly encounter situations where I want to use a word and realise I’ve never heard it spoken before, so have no idea if the pronunciation I use in my head when reading it is correct. I also often hear others mispronounce words; friends, colleagues, even on TV. I guess my point is that if you’re mispronouncing English words you’re speaking it like a native!
pjerem 5y ago
> Either they suck it up, face often humiliation from native speakers from their mistakes (its quite something to see senior banking colleagues laughing like little kids and pointing finger at you on a project meeting because you mixed gender of a noun) or often just give up. I’m French and, at least in my circle, I’ve never seen a native French « humiliating » a non-native trying to speak French. And to me there is two reasons : - we know our language is difficult to learn - we are really bad when it comes to speak any foreign language As*oles are totally a thing (especially in the banking/financial sector) but most French people are admirative of anyone who speaks more than one language. Because most of us can’t.
- midasuni 5y ago
  Got off a train from Brussels at Gare du Nord and asked at the kiosk for “une cafe sil-vous-plait”, guy behind the counter responded in English I don’t bother now. Germany, Italy, Greece, sure, but not France.
  - not2b 5y ago
    My guess is that you didn't say "bonjour" first. Major faux pas.
  - resonious 5y ago
    I'm an American living in Japan and the this happens quite a lot - even among friends who I'm pretty sure mean no harm. It seems like a lot of people have this very strong "foreigner = English" mapping in their head. As soon as you're outed as "foreigner" for any reason, you get the English (even if you're proficient in the local language). I definitely think it's disrespectful to switch languages on someone like that, but a lot of people just don't seem to think about it. Multi-lingual conversation manners are not commonly talked about!
  - jhugo 5y ago
    Most likely he responded in English because he felt it would be easier for both of you, not because he wanted to humiliate you.
soco 5y ago
The Swiss French speakers found a way around that: nonante. Ninety, the Swiss way, not bothered by the French Academy.
Agingcoder 5y ago
You might be having difficulties speaking/understanding the language with actual French people not because it's difficult/random (and it is, I believe that most teenagers can't write a full page of faultless French !) but because spoken and written French are quite different : contractions ( j'sais pas instead of je ne sais pas), using 'on' instead of 'nous', the simple past is never used, slang, etc. Since foreigners tend to learn written French, things get difficult quite quickly when in the field. Obviously, you're not allowed to write spoken French. Interestingly enough, if you listen to people talking in the 50s (old films, radio, etc) , they speak something which is a lot closer to written French. I'm under the impression that there's a growing gap between spoken and written French, and the French académie is not helping by essentially preventing the written language from evolving. As to cleaning it up, well, lots of people agree with you, but always end up facing extremely strong opponents who accuse them of destroying the very nature of French culture!

aktau 5y ago

This was cleaned up in the Belgian variant of French: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French. - 70 = septante (versus soixante-dix, which is 60-10) - 80 = huitante (versus quatre-vingt, which is 40-20), *EDIT*: wrong, see below. - 90 = nonante (versus quatre-vingt-dix, which is 40-20-10) The article also mentions something interesting I didn't know: > The use of septante for "seventy" and nonante for "ninety", in contrast to Standard French soixante-dix (literally "sixty-ten") and quatre-vingt-dix'("four-twenty-ten"). Those former words occur also in Swiss French. Unlike the Swiss, however, Belgians never use huitante for quatre-vingts ("four twenties"), with the use of octante in the local Brussels dialect as being the only exception. Although they are considered Belgian and Swiss words, septante and nonante were common in France until around the 16th century, when the newer forms began to dominate.[4] *EDIT*: This doesn't appear to be true, Belgian French speakers also say quatre-vingt for 80.

benhurmarcel 5y ago
It’s the Swiss who fixed it and say huitante. The Belgians say quatre-vingt like the French.

Zababa 5y ago

I don't think "cleaning up" a language talked by so many people in the world is reasonable because some people have trouble learning it. > Either they suck it up, face often humiliation from native speakers from their mistakes (its quite something to see senior banking colleagues laughing like little kids and pointing finger at you on a project meeting because you mixed gender of a noun). I'm not sure if it's a language problem or a people problem. I often encounter people that mix the gender of nouns, and I don't really care about it. It's a lot to learn and not very important. Just like some people don't have a great accent, that's how it is, it doesn't stop people from communicating. Same for the people that I know, unless we're asked we wouldn't bother correcting someone that "le table" is actually "la table" because tables are female. On my side, I find the pronunciation of English to be very hard to learn and to master, and am scared of sounding stupid whenever I talk English, so I avoid it, and end up not being good at it, so I can understand the sentiment.

ldrndll 5y ago
If it’s any consolation, I find English pronunciation very difficult, and I’m a native speaker. It surprises me that in my thirties I still regularly encounter situations where I want to use a word and realise I’ve never heard it spoken before, so have no idea if the pronunciation I use in my head when reading it is correct. I also often hear others mispronounce words; friends, colleagues, even on TV. I guess my point is that if you’re mispronouncing English words you’re speaking it like a native!

pjerem 5y ago

> Either they suck it up, face often humiliation from native speakers from their mistakes (its quite something to see senior banking colleagues laughing like little kids and pointing finger at you on a project meeting because you mixed gender of a noun) or often just give up. I’m French and, at least in my circle, I’ve never seen a native French « humiliating » a non-native trying to speak French. And to me there is two reasons : - we know our language is difficult to learn - we are really bad when it comes to speak any foreign language As*oles are totally a thing (especially in the banking/financial sector) but most French people are admirative of anyone who speaks more than one language. Because most of us can’t.

midasuni 5y ago
Got off a train from Brussels at Gare du Nord and asked at the kiosk for “une cafe sil-vous-plait”, guy behind the counter responded in English I don’t bother now. Germany, Italy, Greece, sure, but not France.
- not2b 5y ago
  My guess is that you didn't say "bonjour" first. Major faux pas.
- resonious 5y ago
  I'm an American living in Japan and the this happens quite a lot - even among friends who I'm pretty sure mean no harm. It seems like a lot of people have this very strong "foreigner = English" mapping in their head. As soon as you're outed as "foreigner" for any reason, you get the English (even if you're proficient in the local language). I definitely think it's disrespectful to switch languages on someone like that, but a lot of people just don't seem to think about it. Multi-lingual conversation manners are not commonly talked about!
- jhugo 5y ago
  Most likely he responded in English because he felt it would be easier for both of you, not because he wanted to humiliate you.

soco 5y ago

The Swiss French speakers found a way around that: nonante. Ninety, the Swiss way, not bothered by the French Academy.

Agingcoder 5y ago

You might be having difficulties speaking/understanding the language with actual French people not because it's difficult/random (and it is, I believe that most teenagers can't write a full page of faultless French !) but because spoken and written French are quite different : contractions ( j'sais pas instead of je ne sais pas), using 'on' instead of 'nous', the simple past is never used, slang, etc. Since foreigners tend to learn written French, things get difficult quite quickly when in the field. Obviously, you're not allowed to write spoken French. Interestingly enough, if you listen to people talking in the 50s (old films, radio, etc) , they speak something which is a lot closer to written French. I'm under the impression that there's a growing gap between spoken and written French, and the French académie is not helping by essentially preventing the written language from evolving. As to cleaning it up, well, lots of people agree with you, but always end up facing extremely strong opponents who accuse them of destroying the very nature of French culture!