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I've owned a Model X for a year. It dates from before they removed radar, so autopilot still works very well. The rest of the car, however, does not. It is the

I've owned a Model X for a year. It dates from before they removed radar, so autopilot still works very well. The rest of the car, however, does not. It is the least reliable car I have ever known. I am currently tracking ten faults, and waiting for my fifth service, which could only be booked with nearly a month to wait. The most serious faults involve the car sometimes failing to start without a hard reboot first (!), and then a constant stream of non-sensical errors while driving, which cause it to beep loudly with no way to stop it. Dear reader, do not make my mistake, do not buy a Tesla. But not for the usual anti-Tesla propaganda reasons. Autopilot works great. Even the weird "falcon wing" doors are actually very good. It's just that the quality is awful and service is both overbooked and doesn't actually fix things. I've never regretted a car purchase more. PS. Does anyone in the bay area want to buy a Model X? ;)

blamazon 5y ago
Model X ownership is a breeze far from the Bay Area. My mom’s model X has gone in at least a dozen times and there’s never a wait for an appointment. The local service center is excellent.
- zzleeper 5y ago
  > A dozen times That's what's so weird to me. I own an old 2012 Hyundai Accent, bought used at ~12k, and over the last five years I've only taken it for: - Checkup and oil change - Wheel change - Battery change But then I see all these examples of Tesla owners having to fix issue after issue after issue and saying "it's not so bad I just lost an afternoon each time going for an apt"
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    I've literally heard from Tesla owners that one of the perks of owning a Tesla in a densely populated tech-heavy area is all the industry networking you get at the service center.
  - d13 5y ago
    Yup, my 2006 Mini One with 129,000 miles has been the same. Oil, wheels, battery - that’s been all in its entire lifetime.
ushakov 5y ago
i know someone who has a fully-charged model 3 they had spent extra 20k euros to improve it for instance: they added custom roof sealing, because it was getting too loud inside when driving on the highways and then they (tastefully) refitted it with custom-made carbon elements on the inside and the outside tuned/improved Teslas are not that uncommon if you know some owners
- dylan604 5y ago
  Other than the noise sealing, that doesn't really say much negative about the car though (but that could be personal preference). That just says the person you know has plenty of money to customize the interior of the car in ways the manufacture doesn't offer.
  - ushakov 5y ago
    those two are the ones i can recollect right now, but there were definitely other issues as well
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  There are people who will charge between 3 and 5 thousand for you to have your factory-new Tesla delivered to them so they can fix panel gaps and a laundry list of the most common complaints before they deliver the car to you... ... and a scarily large number of people who think this is a reasonable proposition.
  - aspenmayer 5y ago
    Wouldn’t this be a repair outside warranty? One would hope this wouldn’t violate your warranty, though I don’t see why it should?
- obnauticus 5y ago
  For something priced as high as the TM3, TMY or TMX, I find it hilarious that someone would spend even more money just to bring it to parity with other the automotive "luxuries" such as sound deadening. Mind you, most of these luxuries are have been provided by other economy cars at <50% of the cost for _decades_. Just as an observation I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price point. It's reminiscent of bay area housing. Crap quality, outrageously expensive, and with plenty of people with no other life experiences willing to defend it at a moment's notice.
wpietri 5y ago
Yeah, "move fast and break things" is a much better ethos for low-stakes software than high-stakes hardware.
- 01100011 5y ago
  I'm worried that manufacturers see people accepting Tesla quality and follow suit. I just read an article about Fisker following the "Apple model" where they stay lean and outsource all production. Uh, yeah that's great for a $1,000 phone but when I drop 50x that on a rolling death machine I expect quality to be controlled from end to end and kept in house.
  - david38 5y ago
    Why? Look at how much Ford outsources.
    - wpietri 5y ago
      Other car companies do outsource, but it's tricky. Toyota, for example, invests a ton in building long-term relationships with suppliers. [1] But Toyota is the exception here. The more typical oursourcing relationship is one of low bids and dangerous incentives. As Toyota shows, it's not impossible to get it right. But I think it's reasonable to be concerned. [1] https://www.stateofflux.co.uk/ideas-insights/case-studies/toyota https://www.stateofflux.co.uk/ideas-insights/case-studies/to...
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Had a lot of friends buy Teslas in the past few years. Exact same story: Faults everywhere, long waits, poor service (albeit super friendly and with a smile). One friend has received his Model 3 back twice now with the problem not fixed at all. He's resigned to just living with the problem until the service backlogs are lower. It has been interesting to see how tolerance for these quality issues has waned as the shine of the Tesla brand has started to wear off.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  The early adopters were True Believers. Elon was changing the world, and to admit any fault was to interfere with The Plan. So they tended exceedingly defensive of Tesla, well past what the outside world considered absurd when they actually admitted the problems. Tesla has expanded outside that market, and to a person who is looking for a more or less reasonable car, that matches other cars in the price bracket, you're likely to hear nothing but good things about Tesla from the usual sources. And then you get one, and realize that they're failing basic quality control things that literally every other auto maker worked out 20 years or more ago, and their software has all the stability of beta smartphone software. None of this is new. It's just that anyone who said anything of the sort, or pointed out that you can't have 10x the sales on 1x the service centers, or such, got shouted down as a Tesla-shorting big oil shill for an awfully long time. Now, people who don't really care about Elon or The Plan are discovering that a Tesla is a bit of a crapshoot. Some are fine. Some are lemons. And God help you if you get a lemon, because the service experience (remember, according to the True Believers, dealerships are the spawn of Satan) is horrid.
  - therouwboat 5y ago
    Tesla also prioritizing deliveries to employees, investors and owners, probably not just to thank them.
  - nouveaux 5y ago
    Elon Musk was the only person willing to build out a whole charging network and that was the biggest factor in the adoption of EVs. That IMO did change the world. Its possible to love something for its good qualities and accept the bad. "With historic reliability concerns but an intensely loyal following, Tesla took the top spot for overall owner satisfaction among the 27 brands mentioned in survey responses."[0] [0]https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-satisfying-cars-on-the-market-car-owner-satisfaction-a8149304159/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...
drewg123 5y ago
[ slightly edited version of a reply i made a week ago on the CR article]: I have a 2017 Model X that I bought new. The EV part is great, its everything else that sucks. Since I've had it, I've taken it for service for the following: o Arrived w/o Tow pkg (Tesla "forgot" it, was installed via service center appt) o falcon wing doors improperly adjusted, leading to wind noise and water intrusion o Loud wind noise and fogging passenger side windows: Due to improperly installed "triangle" window on passenger door o Worn half shafts caused shudder under acceleration, replaced at ~20k miles o fogging drivers side A pillar camera after rain, leading to "navigate on autopilot unavailable" o Drove in "low" mode to preserve half shafts, caused excessive tire wear. Wore inner rear tires down to a puncture around 30k miles. Replaced tires and had car re-aligned to run in "low" mode. o Half shafts replaced again at 38k miles o Upper control arms shot around 39k miles, car just out of warranty, and Tesla initially wanted $1k to fix, but eventually fixed for free after I complained. All in all, I'm thinking to get a different car since I need a car that works. I don't want a non-Tesla EV since the charging options for non-Tesla EVs suck. I'm currently looking at PHEVs. Ironically, I'll probably unload the Tesla for another EV only if/when Tesla opens superchargers up to other EVs. How much of a loss would you take if you sold your Model X right now? They are not very available new, so I assume you would not loose too much money. Mine has actually gained a bit in value over the last 18 months or so..
- shituonui 5y ago
  PHEVs make more sense to me anyway. For the majority of trips they run off the battery which makes them just as good as a BEV, but they have no problems with range and they are a whole lot cheaper.
  - tdhz77 5y ago
    Range isn’t an issue for anybody who has owned an EV. Your behavior changed when you got an iPhone and you moved on with your life. Same thing here.
    - smnscu 5y ago
      I live in the UK and recently went EV-only (miss our Q7, perfect family car, etc). It's not the range I'm worried about, but the infinite flakiness of the various chargers I tried -- I'm not exaggerating when I say that about 50% of the time I fail to get the damn car to charge due to either the charger being offline or random glitches (could also be due to my fairly new Q4 e-tron). I am considering a Manchester-Isle of Skye road trip, and I'm not yet sure we'll actually go through with it. TL;DR less range anxiety, more "getting stranded because of unreliable chargers" anxiety PS: I should add, having 3 small-ish children is definitely the major factor here, were I alone I couldn't care less that I had to wait a few hours for trickle charging, might as well get some work done PPS: speaking of glitches, the Q4 e-tron lane keep assist is incredibly panicky and has constant mini freakouts whenever something strange happens to the road (e.g. lanes splitting on the motorway, passing parked cars on narrow roads, etc.) -- thankfully it's just annoying (slight jerk and vibration of the steering wheel) and not actually dangerous
shituonui 5y ago
>Autopilot works great. I don't think anyone claims otherwise on the older models. The problem is twofold: 1. They promised "Full Self Driving" and delivered ordinary driver assistance. 2. The vision-based approach just plain does not work.
- dham 5y ago
  > The vision-based approach just plain does not work. No. Vision is the one and only future for self driving. Source: Been closely following this scene for years and own a Comma 2 (Open Pilot).
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    So, you're admitting that computer-based self driving cars won't be a thing? Clever, but probably not what you think you're arguing for... Silicon Valley has a regular, predictable, very tedious pair of arrogances when it comes to things like this. 1. "We are as gods in the synthetic world of the internet, because we know Code. Therefore we must be like gods in the external, physical world!" It's perpetually on display, and Tesla is an amazing case study here. After deriding those dinosaur, idiot, legacy automakers for their horridly slow, glacial, obsolete factories that mixed humans with robots on the assembly line, instead of being purely robot based and running at sonic velocities... the Model 3 and such are produced on something that's virtually indistinguishable from those "dinosaur" lines. GM, Honda, Toyota... they've all been trying for the "lights out dreadnaught" car factory since the 80s, and have all concluded that it simply doesn't work. It's cheaper, faster, and more reliable to have humans in the loop, and run the line at their pace, than to solve the problems that increasingly look like "full general purpose AI." 2. "A human visual system is just a couple shitty cameras and a neural network. How hard can it be?" The answer is, "Exceedingly hard." The human visual system works at a far better angular resolution in the core than Tesla's system does (the Tesla "narrow" camera has a 4x worse angular resolution than the human eye core, and the human eye is really good at scanning that high resolution core and merging details), and the neural network behind it is an awful lot more complex than anything our computers can emulate. My three year old makes fun of the "green moons" and "red moons" in the sky after showing him the video of a Tesla confusing a low moon for a yellow light, because he can tell the difference between the moon and a traffic light. And I guarantee his visual processing system is capable of an awful lot more than a Tesla, in practical real world situations. I don't trust him to drive anything faster than his Power Wheels, but... well, neither do I trust a Tesla to do that. A multi-sensor fusion based system has some hope of working with current technology. Vision only? Not a chance.
martythemaniak 5y ago
I've had a Model3 for three and a half years now (very early VIN). It's been our primary and for much of the time, only car. It's been fantastic, and I've recommended it to everyone, and three people I know have purchased 3s/Ys as well and have also been super satisfied. Is it flawless? No - upon delivery the read badge was missing and the glove box had a gap. Went to get it fixed. Year after that the front arms needed replacing. A few months ago the charge port actuator stopped working (you can still lift it manually) - clicked a few buttons in the app and a guy came by to fix it on our driveway. We have a secondary ICEV and we both hate it and mock it. It is actually one the best ICEVs in its class, but fundamentally, all ICEVs are irredeemably terrible. It needs replacing soon and I've been through every single EV out there considering alternatives, but in the end we have to replace it with a Model Y. Teslas are not flawless cars, but they are, simply, the best cars.
- Marazan 5y ago
  My car doesn't randomly apply the brakes for no reason.
  - martythemaniak 5y ago
    Neither does mine.
  - danw1979 5y ago
    Mine - a UK Prius plug-in 2013 - still, after all the recalls and software updates, skids forward uncontrollably if you’re braking and hit a drain lid, because the traction control goes loopy somehow. I’m not defending Tesla here, but let’s not pretend the established manufacturers don’t run into safety issues when it comes to the clever software under the hood.
    - vesrah 5y ago
      These kind of ABS issues (braking over a big bump, normal braking to an extremely slippery surface with just one wheel, etc) are pretty common among many cars. They basically all use one of a few ABS systems from Bosch or Continental with the parameters set to match the chassis / tire / etc setup.
bryan0 5y ago
Consumer Reports agrees with you: > Model X ranked dead-last among all cars for reliability, scoring a 5 out of 100. https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-last-Consumer-Reports-16632996.php https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...
zhoujianfu 5y ago
My first X (2016) went to the shop 17 times in the first year, all for different issues. It’s now finally more or less working reliably. I got a new X in 2019 and so far it’s had no issues at all.
- steelframe 5y ago
  > I got a new X in 2019 I certainly salute you for your tenacity with the brand. After I unloaded my 2016 Model X, you couldn't convince me to touch another one of those cars with a 10-foot pole.
- 01100011 5y ago
  I'm a Tesla hater, but I think it's reasonable to assume their quality will dramatically improve as they get production figured out and stop hacking things together to meet their numbers.
  - carlivar 5y ago
    Well, Musk actively avoids the Toyota Production System which seems insane and offends me as an engineer. So I don't think quality will improve until he changes his stubborn tune.
    - Syonyk 5y ago
      I mean, you could put a ton of effort into improving quality, consistency, etc. Or you could just Tweet that anyone critical of your car is a big oil funded Tesla-shorting planet hating shill. One gets you most of the other, for an awful lot less actual effort.
    - jeron 5y ago
      I mean this is the same guy who camped out at the factory for like 3 weeks to iron out all the production issues with model 3 and scale production up to meet demand, and it more or less worked. Perhaps you don't need the Toyota production system after all
gnicholas 5y ago
Car buyers who are unhappy with their Teslas should look into their local 'lemon law', which can be very consumer-friendly. In CA, for example, the lemon law covers you up to 18 months after purchase, and if you satisfy any one of the prongs then the manufacturer will be required to buy the car back from you. Summary of the criteria: [1] • for defects that could cause injury/death, the manufacturer has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem twice • for any other defects, the manufacturer has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem 4 times • the vehicle has been 'in the shop' for a total of 30 days (need not be consecutive) We had a VW that qualified for lemon law relief, and VW was forced to purchase the car back from us, including sales tax. There was a minimal amount that was not refunded, to reflect the month or so that we got to use the car before it started acting up. 1: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/when-can-you-use-californias-lemon-law-for-a-car-problem/2152180/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/when-can-you-use-calif...
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  Unfortunately I've had so many different problems that Tesla has only had the opportunity to look at each one once or twice. And none of them are of the "injury/death" kind, at least as far as I know. But they keep piling up, up to ten now.
  - gnicholas 5y ago
    Sounds like you might eventually satisfy the third prong. You only need to hit one of the three.
  - tdhz77 5y ago
    My Tesla phantom brakes me right into a highway divider and totaled my car.
    - ericbarrett 5y ago
      That's pretty shocking. Can you share more details?
zarkov99 5y ago
I have a model S P85+ that is now 8+ years old. Its the best car I have ever had, bar none, and I have had nice cars before. Its still smooth, powerful, comfortable, silent, safe and I still love to drive it. I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up, sorted the issue in the most convenient way possible, sometimes working my driveway, sometimes by driving a loaner to my office. I have never had a car that was better or service that was anywhere in the same class. I will likely never buy any other brand of car. Dear reader, please buy a Tesla, its the best car out there, its the safest car for your family and its made in America, by a company that is showing all of us that America can still innovate, still lead the world.
- carlivar 5y ago
  When was the last time they drove a loaner to you? As I understand it, that level of service was discontinued a few years back (a relic of the luxury S/X only days).
- worik 5y ago
  " I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up" Is that not the point? The best car you have had, with issues. I have a Honda Fit. It is getting on to fifteen years old now. No issues ever except for wear. But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you
  - zarkov99 5y ago
    I have had issues in every car I have ever had, including luxury German and Japanese brands. Over an 8 year period, on a car that broke so much new technical ground and with a level of support that is so absolutely fantastic, I consider the issues I had to be not significant, detracting very little from my overall extraordinary experience.
  - zarkov99 5y ago
    > But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you Tesla did disrupt the entire process and where they are now is 5 years ahead of every single major manufacturer in EVs, including Honda. Honda, Toyota, VW, GM are in for an ocean of pain as we transition to EVs and China floods the market with cheap, quality offerings. Their complacency is exactly the wrong kind of hubris and they will be luck to end the decade as major manufacturers.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rock_hard 5y ago
Had a Model Y for a year now Hands down the best car I have ever had and I have owned Audis, BMWs and other high end cars. Whenever I have to drive a non Tesla me and my wife just can’t stop laughing at how ridiculous they are…it’s like operating steam engines Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know including ourselves couldn’t be more happy with their Tesla
- dntrkv 5y ago
  > Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know including ourselves couldn’t be more happy with their Tesla This is my experience talking to everyone I know with a Tesla. Not saying the complaints aren't real, but the internet really does bring out the selection bias when it comes to people having issues with their purchase. If you look at Consumer Reports for most satisfied car purchases, all of the Teslas make the top 10.
  - zwaps 5y ago
    Someone else itt said that Tesla is ranked last in terms of reliability https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-last-Consumer-Reports-16632996.php https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  Ridiculous how? I loved the experience of driving a Tesla, but what’s so significantly better that it would cause laughter?
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    There's been no shortage of "I bought an EV, had an ICE rental, and can't believe how horribly awful this awful horrible car is!" articles in the last decade, just find one. They're all the same. They tend to go on about noise, vibration, the awful smell of gas stations, and a variety of other common and tedious complaints. Ok, yes, we get it, you're smug and have to prove to everyone else how amazing your purchase was, but must you write the 500th version of the same article? Or you can just accept that every vehicle is different, every vehicle has different quirks, wants to be driven/ridden differently, listen to what it tells you, and go from there. Yes, you can flog an Insight around a twisty road on the paddle shifters, but... that's not what the car wants, and it's not very rewarding to try and make it drive like something it isn't. An EV isn't an ICE isn't a PHEV isn't a hybrid isn't a rotary isn't a... Even among theoretically identical vehicles, they often enough aren't, after enough miles. I drove buses for a while, and they tended to be purchased in lots - two of this, four of that, etc. Even among the "sister buses," they were different. Some were smoother, some seemed to have more power, some were wired differently. Know the quirks of each bus and you were going to have a fine time. Miss that 947 really benefited from turning off the AC compressor off a stoplight, and you would struggle to keep a schedule on the weekend. But man, that was a sweet cruising evening route bus. On the campus circulators, 926 and 927 were best run in first gear - they were big four cylinders (something like an 8L 4-cylinder) that were really prone to shifting into 2nd, and then getting stuck lugging along barely above idle instead of shifting down to 1st if you were on a bit of a grade. Keep them in first, it was fine on those routes (first was a pretty tall gear on them). And it goes on. Instead of whining about what a vehicle isn't, enjoy it for what it is, listen to it, drive it how it wants to be driven, and you'll have a good time. It's just not good for clicks.
dham 5y ago
> Autopilot works great So does my $1K Open Pilot on a significantly cheaper Rav 4. Also you don't have to put hands on wheel. If you have to put your hands on wheel for adaptive cruise control you might as well just drive the car.

blamazon 5y ago

Model X ownership is a breeze far from the Bay Area. My mom’s model X has gone in at least a dozen times and there’s never a wait for an appointment. The local service center is excellent.

zzleeper 5y ago
> A dozen times That's what's so weird to me. I own an old 2012 Hyundai Accent, bought used at ~12k, and over the last five years I've only taken it for: - Checkup and oil change - Wheel change - Battery change But then I see all these examples of Tesla owners having to fix issue after issue after issue and saying "it's not so bad I just lost an afternoon each time going for an apt"
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Syonyk 5y ago
  I've literally heard from Tesla owners that one of the perks of owning a Tesla in a densely populated tech-heavy area is all the industry networking you get at the service center.
- d13 5y ago
  Yup, my 2006 Mini One with 129,000 miles has been the same. Oil, wheels, battery - that’s been all in its entire lifetime.

ushakov 5y ago

i know someone who has a fully-charged model 3 they had spent extra 20k euros to improve it for instance: they added custom roof sealing, because it was getting too loud inside when driving on the highways and then they (tastefully) refitted it with custom-made carbon elements on the inside and the outside tuned/improved Teslas are not that uncommon if you know some owners

dylan604 5y ago
Other than the noise sealing, that doesn't really say much negative about the car though (but that could be personal preference). That just says the person you know has plenty of money to customize the interior of the car in ways the manufacture doesn't offer.
- ushakov 5y ago
  those two are the ones i can recollect right now, but there were definitely other issues as well
FireBeyond 5y ago
There are people who will charge between 3 and 5 thousand for you to have your factory-new Tesla delivered to them so they can fix panel gaps and a laundry list of the most common complaints before they deliver the car to you... ... and a scarily large number of people who think this is a reasonable proposition.
- aspenmayer 5y ago
  Wouldn’t this be a repair outside warranty? One would hope this wouldn’t violate your warranty, though I don’t see why it should?
obnauticus 5y ago
For something priced as high as the TM3, TMY or TMX, I find it hilarious that someone would spend even more money just to bring it to parity with other the automotive "luxuries" such as sound deadening. Mind you, most of these luxuries are have been provided by other economy cars at <50% of the cost for _decades_. Just as an observation I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price point. It's reminiscent of bay area housing. Crap quality, outrageously expensive, and with plenty of people with no other life experiences willing to defend it at a moment's notice.

wpietri 5y ago

Yeah, "move fast and break things" is a much better ethos for low-stakes software than high-stakes hardware.

01100011 5y ago
I'm worried that manufacturers see people accepting Tesla quality and follow suit. I just read an article about Fisker following the "Apple model" where they stay lean and outsource all production. Uh, yeah that's great for a $1,000 phone but when I drop 50x that on a rolling death machine I expect quality to be controlled from end to end and kept in house.
- david38 5y ago
  Why? Look at how much Ford outsources.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    Other car companies do outsource, but it's tricky. Toyota, for example, invests a ton in building long-term relationships with suppliers. [1] But Toyota is the exception here. The more typical oursourcing relationship is one of low bids and dangerous incentives. As Toyota shows, it's not impossible to get it right. But I think it's reasonable to be concerned. [1] https://www.stateofflux.co.uk/ideas-insights/case-studies/toyota https://www.stateofflux.co.uk/ideas-insights/case-studies/to...

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Had a lot of friends buy Teslas in the past few years. Exact same story: Faults everywhere, long waits, poor service (albeit super friendly and with a smile). One friend has received his Model 3 back twice now with the problem not fixed at all. He's resigned to just living with the problem until the service backlogs are lower. It has been interesting to see how tolerance for these quality issues has waned as the shine of the Tesla brand has started to wear off.

Syonyk 5y ago
The early adopters were True Believers. Elon was changing the world, and to admit any fault was to interfere with The Plan. So they tended exceedingly defensive of Tesla, well past what the outside world considered absurd when they actually admitted the problems. Tesla has expanded outside that market, and to a person who is looking for a more or less reasonable car, that matches other cars in the price bracket, you're likely to hear nothing but good things about Tesla from the usual sources. And then you get one, and realize that they're failing basic quality control things that literally every other auto maker worked out 20 years or more ago, and their software has all the stability of beta smartphone software. None of this is new. It's just that anyone who said anything of the sort, or pointed out that you can't have 10x the sales on 1x the service centers, or such, got shouted down as a Tesla-shorting big oil shill for an awfully long time. Now, people who don't really care about Elon or The Plan are discovering that a Tesla is a bit of a crapshoot. Some are fine. Some are lemons. And God help you if you get a lemon, because the service experience (remember, according to the True Believers, dealerships are the spawn of Satan) is horrid.
- therouwboat 5y ago
  Tesla also prioritizing deliveries to employees, investors and owners, probably not just to thank them.
- nouveaux 5y ago
  Elon Musk was the only person willing to build out a whole charging network and that was the biggest factor in the adoption of EVs. That IMO did change the world. Its possible to love something for its good qualities and accept the bad. "With historic reliability concerns but an intensely loyal following, Tesla took the top spot for overall owner satisfaction among the 27 brands mentioned in survey responses."[0] [0]https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-satisfying-cars-on-the-market-car-owner-satisfaction-a8149304159/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...

drewg123 5y ago

[ slightly edited version of a reply i made a week ago on the CR article]: I have a 2017 Model X that I bought new. The EV part is great, its everything else that sucks. Since I've had it, I've taken it for service for the following: o Arrived w/o Tow pkg (Tesla "forgot" it, was installed via service center appt) o falcon wing doors improperly adjusted, leading to wind noise and water intrusion o Loud wind noise and fogging passenger side windows: Due to improperly installed "triangle" window on passenger door o Worn half shafts caused shudder under acceleration, replaced at ~20k miles o fogging drivers side A pillar camera after rain, leading to "navigate on autopilot unavailable" o Drove in "low" mode to preserve half shafts, caused excessive tire wear. Wore inner rear tires down to a puncture around 30k miles. Replaced tires and had car re-aligned to run in "low" mode. o Half shafts replaced again at 38k miles o Upper control arms shot around 39k miles, car just out of warranty, and Tesla initially wanted $1k to fix, but eventually fixed for free after I complained. All in all, I'm thinking to get a different car since I need a car that works. I don't want a non-Tesla EV since the charging options for non-Tesla EVs suck. I'm currently looking at PHEVs. Ironically, I'll probably unload the Tesla for another EV only if/when Tesla opens superchargers up to other EVs. How much of a loss would you take if you sold your Model X right now? They are not very available new, so I assume you would not loose too much money. Mine has actually gained a bit in value over the last 18 months or so..

shituonui 5y ago
PHEVs make more sense to me anyway. For the majority of trips they run off the battery which makes them just as good as a BEV, but they have no problems with range and they are a whole lot cheaper.
- tdhz77 5y ago
  Range isn’t an issue for anybody who has owned an EV. Your behavior changed when you got an iPhone and you moved on with your life. Same thing here.
  - smnscu 5y ago
    I live in the UK and recently went EV-only (miss our Q7, perfect family car, etc). It's not the range I'm worried about, but the infinite flakiness of the various chargers I tried -- I'm not exaggerating when I say that about 50% of the time I fail to get the damn car to charge due to either the charger being offline or random glitches (could also be due to my fairly new Q4 e-tron). I am considering a Manchester-Isle of Skye road trip, and I'm not yet sure we'll actually go through with it. TL;DR less range anxiety, more "getting stranded because of unreliable chargers" anxiety PS: I should add, having 3 small-ish children is definitely the major factor here, were I alone I couldn't care less that I had to wait a few hours for trickle charging, might as well get some work done PPS: speaking of glitches, the Q4 e-tron lane keep assist is incredibly panicky and has constant mini freakouts whenever something strange happens to the road (e.g. lanes splitting on the motorway, passing parked cars on narrow roads, etc.) -- thankfully it's just annoying (slight jerk and vibration of the steering wheel) and not actually dangerous

shituonui 5y ago

>Autopilot works great. I don't think anyone claims otherwise on the older models. The problem is twofold: 1. They promised "Full Self Driving" and delivered ordinary driver assistance. 2. The vision-based approach just plain does not work.

dham 5y ago
> The vision-based approach just plain does not work. No. Vision is the one and only future for self driving. Source: Been closely following this scene for years and own a Comma 2 (Open Pilot).
- Syonyk 5y ago
  So, you're admitting that computer-based self driving cars won't be a thing? Clever, but probably not what you think you're arguing for... Silicon Valley has a regular, predictable, very tedious pair of arrogances when it comes to things like this. 1. "We are as gods in the synthetic world of the internet, because we know Code. Therefore we must be like gods in the external, physical world!" It's perpetually on display, and Tesla is an amazing case study here. After deriding those dinosaur, idiot, legacy automakers for their horridly slow, glacial, obsolete factories that mixed humans with robots on the assembly line, instead of being purely robot based and running at sonic velocities... the Model 3 and such are produced on something that's virtually indistinguishable from those "dinosaur" lines. GM, Honda, Toyota... they've all been trying for the "lights out dreadnaught" car factory since the 80s, and have all concluded that it simply doesn't work. It's cheaper, faster, and more reliable to have humans in the loop, and run the line at their pace, than to solve the problems that increasingly look like "full general purpose AI." 2. "A human visual system is just a couple shitty cameras and a neural network. How hard can it be?" The answer is, "Exceedingly hard." The human visual system works at a far better angular resolution in the core than Tesla's system does (the Tesla "narrow" camera has a 4x worse angular resolution than the human eye core, and the human eye is really good at scanning that high resolution core and merging details), and the neural network behind it is an awful lot more complex than anything our computers can emulate. My three year old makes fun of the "green moons" and "red moons" in the sky after showing him the video of a Tesla confusing a low moon for a yellow light, because he can tell the difference between the moon and a traffic light. And I guarantee his visual processing system is capable of an awful lot more than a Tesla, in practical real world situations. I don't trust him to drive anything faster than his Power Wheels, but... well, neither do I trust a Tesla to do that. A multi-sensor fusion based system has some hope of working with current technology. Vision only? Not a chance.

martythemaniak 5y ago

I've had a Model3 for three and a half years now (very early VIN). It's been our primary and for much of the time, only car. It's been fantastic, and I've recommended it to everyone, and three people I know have purchased 3s/Ys as well and have also been super satisfied. Is it flawless? No - upon delivery the read badge was missing and the glove box had a gap. Went to get it fixed. Year after that the front arms needed replacing. A few months ago the charge port actuator stopped working (you can still lift it manually) - clicked a few buttons in the app and a guy came by to fix it on our driveway. We have a secondary ICEV and we both hate it and mock it. It is actually one the best ICEVs in its class, but fundamentally, all ICEVs are irredeemably terrible. It needs replacing soon and I've been through every single EV out there considering alternatives, but in the end we have to replace it with a Model Y. Teslas are not flawless cars, but they are, simply, the best cars.

Marazan 5y ago
My car doesn't randomly apply the brakes for no reason.
- martythemaniak 5y ago
  Neither does mine.
- danw1979 5y ago
  Mine - a UK Prius plug-in 2013 - still, after all the recalls and software updates, skids forward uncontrollably if you’re braking and hit a drain lid, because the traction control goes loopy somehow. I’m not defending Tesla here, but let’s not pretend the established manufacturers don’t run into safety issues when it comes to the clever software under the hood.
  - vesrah 5y ago
    These kind of ABS issues (braking over a big bump, normal braking to an extremely slippery surface with just one wheel, etc) are pretty common among many cars. They basically all use one of a few ABS systems from Bosch or Continental with the parameters set to match the chassis / tire / etc setup.

bryan0 5y ago

Consumer Reports agrees with you: > Model X ranked dead-last among all cars for reliability, scoring a 5 out of 100. https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-last-Consumer-Reports-16632996.php https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...

zhoujianfu 5y ago

My first X (2016) went to the shop 17 times in the first year, all for different issues. It’s now finally more or less working reliably. I got a new X in 2019 and so far it’s had no issues at all.

steelframe 5y ago
> I got a new X in 2019 I certainly salute you for your tenacity with the brand. After I unloaded my 2016 Model X, you couldn't convince me to touch another one of those cars with a 10-foot pole.
01100011 5y ago
I'm a Tesla hater, but I think it's reasonable to assume their quality will dramatically improve as they get production figured out and stop hacking things together to meet their numbers.
- carlivar 5y ago
  Well, Musk actively avoids the Toyota Production System which seems insane and offends me as an engineer. So I don't think quality will improve until he changes his stubborn tune.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    I mean, you could put a ton of effort into improving quality, consistency, etc. Or you could just Tweet that anyone critical of your car is a big oil funded Tesla-shorting planet hating shill. One gets you most of the other, for an awful lot less actual effort.
  - jeron 5y ago
    I mean this is the same guy who camped out at the factory for like 3 weeks to iron out all the production issues with model 3 and scale production up to meet demand, and it more or less worked. Perhaps you don't need the Toyota production system after all

gnicholas 5y ago

Car buyers who are unhappy with their Teslas should look into their local 'lemon law', which can be very consumer-friendly. In CA, for example, the lemon law covers you up to 18 months after purchase, and if you satisfy any one of the prongs then the manufacturer will be required to buy the car back from you. Summary of the criteria: [1] • for defects that could cause injury/death, the manufacturer has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem twice • for any other defects, the manufacturer has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem 4 times • the vehicle has been 'in the shop' for a total of 30 days (need not be consecutive) We had a VW that qualified for lemon law relief, and VW was forced to purchase the car back from us, including sales tax. There was a minimal amount that was not refunded, to reflect the month or so that we got to use the car before it started acting up. 1: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/when-can-you-use-californias-lemon-law-for-a-car-problem/2152180/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/when-can-you-use-calif...

LeoPanthera 5y ago
Unfortunately I've had so many different problems that Tesla has only had the opportunity to look at each one once or twice. And none of them are of the "injury/death" kind, at least as far as I know. But they keep piling up, up to ten now.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  Sounds like you might eventually satisfy the third prong. You only need to hit one of the three.
- tdhz77 5y ago
  My Tesla phantom brakes me right into a highway divider and totaled my car.
  - ericbarrett 5y ago
    That's pretty shocking. Can you share more details?

zarkov99 5y ago

I have a model S P85+ that is now 8+ years old. Its the best car I have ever had, bar none, and I have had nice cars before. Its still smooth, powerful, comfortable, silent, safe and I still love to drive it. I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up, sorted the issue in the most convenient way possible, sometimes working my driveway, sometimes by driving a loaner to my office. I have never had a car that was better or service that was anywhere in the same class. I will likely never buy any other brand of car. Dear reader, please buy a Tesla, its the best car out there, its the safest car for your family and its made in America, by a company that is showing all of us that America can still innovate, still lead the world.

carlivar 5y ago
When was the last time they drove a loaner to you? As I understand it, that level of service was discontinued a few years back (a relic of the luxury S/X only days).
worik 5y ago
" I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up" Is that not the point? The best car you have had, with issues. I have a Honda Fit. It is getting on to fifteen years old now. No issues ever except for wear. But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you
- zarkov99 5y ago
  I have had issues in every car I have ever had, including luxury German and Japanese brands. Over an 8 year period, on a car that broke so much new technical ground and with a level of support that is so absolutely fantastic, I consider the issues I had to be not significant, detracting very little from my overall extraordinary experience.
- zarkov99 5y ago
  > But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you Tesla did disrupt the entire process and where they are now is 5 years ahead of every single major manufacturer in EVs, including Honda. Honda, Toyota, VW, GM are in for an ocean of pain as we transition to EVs and China floods the market with cheap, quality offerings. Their complacency is exactly the wrong kind of hubris and they will be luck to end the decade as major manufacturers.

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rock_hard 5y ago

Had a Model Y for a year now Hands down the best car I have ever had and I have owned Audis, BMWs and other high end cars. Whenever I have to drive a non Tesla me and my wife just can’t stop laughing at how ridiculous they are…it’s like operating steam engines Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know including ourselves couldn’t be more happy with their Tesla

dntrkv 5y ago
> Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know including ourselves couldn’t be more happy with their Tesla This is my experience talking to everyone I know with a Tesla. Not saying the complaints aren't real, but the internet really does bring out the selection bias when it comes to people having issues with their purchase. If you look at Consumer Reports for most satisfied car purchases, all of the Teslas make the top 10.
- zwaps 5y ago
  Someone else itt said that Tesla is ranked last in terms of reliability https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-last-Consumer-Reports-16632996.php https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...
alphabettsy 5y ago
Ridiculous how? I loved the experience of driving a Tesla, but what’s so significantly better that it would cause laughter?
- Syonyk 5y ago
  There's been no shortage of "I bought an EV, had an ICE rental, and can't believe how horribly awful this awful horrible car is!" articles in the last decade, just find one. They're all the same. They tend to go on about noise, vibration, the awful smell of gas stations, and a variety of other common and tedious complaints. Ok, yes, we get it, you're smug and have to prove to everyone else how amazing your purchase was, but must you write the 500th version of the same article? Or you can just accept that every vehicle is different, every vehicle has different quirks, wants to be driven/ridden differently, listen to what it tells you, and go from there. Yes, you can flog an Insight around a twisty road on the paddle shifters, but... that's not what the car wants, and it's not very rewarding to try and make it drive like something it isn't. An EV isn't an ICE isn't a PHEV isn't a hybrid isn't a rotary isn't a... Even among theoretically identical vehicles, they often enough aren't, after enough miles. I drove buses for a while, and they tended to be purchased in lots - two of this, four of that, etc. Even among the "sister buses," they were different. Some were smoother, some seemed to have more power, some were wired differently. Know the quirks of each bus and you were going to have a fine time. Miss that 947 really benefited from turning off the AC compressor off a stoplight, and you would struggle to keep a schedule on the weekend. But man, that was a sweet cruising evening route bus. On the campus circulators, 926 and 927 were best run in first gear - they were big four cylinders (something like an 8L 4-cylinder) that were really prone to shifting into 2nd, and then getting stuck lugging along barely above idle instead of shifting down to 1st if you were on a bit of a grade. Keep them in first, it was fine on those routes (first was a pretty tall gear on them). And it goes on. Instead of whining about what a vehicle isn't, enjoy it for what it is, listen to it, drive it how it wants to be driven, and you'll have a good time. It's just not good for clicks.

dham 5y ago

> Autopilot works great So does my $1K Open Pilot on a significantly cheaper Rav 4. Also you don't have to put hands on wheel. If you have to put your hands on wheel for adaptive cruise control you might as well just drive the car.