5 ms·

Meh. Grammar, in general, is on a steep suckiness trend. For example, when was the last time you saw someone on the web actually use the correct past tense of

by bsder 5y ago

Meh. Grammar, in general, is on a steep suckiness trend. For example, when was the last time you saw someone on the web actually use the correct past tense of "lead (verb, transitive)"?

pwdisswordfish0 5y ago
What is the correct past tense of lead? I thought it was “led”, but I can’t remember having ever read any other form? What often irks me, as a non-native speaker, is the wrong subjunctive (if that’s what it’s called). People say and write all the time “I wish you were there”, when they mean “I wish you had been there”. At least I’m pretty sure that’s how it’s supposed to be…
- dsr_ 5y ago
  Present: "He leads me to believe in grammatical rigor." Past: "She led me to that conclusion long ago." Past, growing popular but historically incorrect: "She lead me to that conclusion long ago." Noun: "I licked the sweet lead off the wall." Also noun: "After six rounds of chess-boxing-sprinting, it was not clear to either of the participants who had the lead." Also also popular but historically incorrect noun: "We have eighty thousand lead-free ornaments on this wall, each lit by an individually-addressable led."
  - NoSorryCannot 5y ago
    This is spelling, not grammar. It's the same word, not a noun, spelled differently.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    And each led connected to power by its own lead. Incidentally, are those ornaments electrically-powered? Don't they need leads to provide power?
- dsr_ 5y ago
  "I wish you were here" -- in this location, now or in the past. "I wish you were there" -- at another location, now or in the past. "I wish you had been there" -- at another location, in the past. "had been" means that the action is concluded. "were" is for both continuing and concluded actions, and more words are necessary to glark it from context.
- ghkbrew 5y ago
  "I wish you were here." is grammatically correct in English. And yes it is the "subjunctive mood". Its meaning is closer to "I wish for you to be here" than "I wish you had been here". This random page I found on the internet has a pretty decent explanation of the subjunctive: https://www.learngrammar.net/a/examples-of-the-subjunctive-mood https://www.learngrammar.net/a/examples-of-the-subjunctive-m...
  - secondcoming 5y ago
    "I wish you were _there_", not "I wish you were here"
- bsder 5y ago
  > I thought it was “led” It is "led". I notice the web using "lead" for both the present and past forms a lot--presumably because it sneaks past spelling checkers and autocorrect. (There's also a correspondence to "read" (long e) where "read" (short e) is also the past tense. Yeah, welcome to English.) And, I'm almost sorry for pointing it out if you haven't noticed it. Once you do notice it, you see it everywhere and it's a big, jarring speedbump when you read.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  "Were" is the subjunctive. I think it comes to English from the German subjunctive form "wäre". It's not the same word as "were", as in "We were running". The example you've chosen refers to an event in the past, so "were" seems to be ambiguous in that context, because it could be "you were there", prefixed by I wish - i.e. the writer isn't trying to use the subjunctive at all, which I think is nowadays OK. "I wish you were here" is a clearer example. That is clearly present subjunctive. "I wish you had been here" would be referring to an event in the past - so that's some kind of past subjunctive. I regret the death of the subjunctive.
forgatmigej 5y ago
Some would say that a focus on proper grammar, expansive incorporated linguistical repertoires, and western/anglo-centric style is not inclusive. And I would agree. In line with your example, I have noticed "costed" used instead of "cost" increasingly often.
- dsr_ 5y ago
  "costed" is proper when referring to the past action of determining the price for something to purchase. "Last week Sheila costed out the parts list, so it should be accurate." "priced" is proper for both the past actions of determining the price of something to purchase or something to sell. "Last week Sheila priced out the parts list, so it should be accurate." "Last week Sheila priced everything on the shelves."
- throwaway2077 5y ago
  english is not esperanto. it happens to be the native language for a significant part of the world population, and they have no obligation to accept its bastardization for the sake of inclusivity. in every non-western country with its own language, those "some" would get rightfully ridiculed.
  - tomcatfish 5y ago
    > bastardization What is this universal, pure English you've been speaking? I must have missed the tablets on which it was written? Non jokingly: There is no "bastardization" of a natural language. It is spoken how it is spoken and insisting otherwise is missing the point of language (I suggest it is "communication"). There is no King of English to sit and dictate the rules except for the common languages spoken. If you want to really grok the concept, take some time to figure out what a "language" actually is. I'll give you a hint: your first 5 definitions have obvious failings.
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      I don't agree that contemporary usage defines the language. We have a canon of English literature reaching back centuries, and people use phrases from e.g. Shakespeare without eveen noticing they're doing it. I think it would be a shame if learning contemporary usage should fail to equip you to read Shakespeare. Descriptivism is all very well; but it doesn't seem to allow for any usage to be actually incorrect.
beardyw 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29274875#29276377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29274875#29276377 8 days ago, 3 times.
- bsder 5y ago
  Erm, at least one of those is unusually wrong: "The doors are not always hidden - they clearly separate these two worlds, and may also led to very nice places that are just not public." Presumably a typo.
  - beardyw 5y ago
    True, and one of the others is mine - not really sure I can claim I read it! Still ... one.
denton-scratch 5y ago
Isn't that just ignorant spelling? I don't think that's a grammmar error. But I see it all the time.

by bsder 5y ago

Meh. Grammar, in general, is on a steep suckiness trend. For example, when was the last time you saw someone on the web actually use the correct past tense of "lead (verb, transitive)"?

pwdisswordfish0 5y ago

What is the correct past tense of lead? I thought it was “led”, but I can’t remember having ever read any other form? What often irks me, as a non-native speaker, is the wrong subjunctive (if that’s what it’s called). People say and write all the time “I wish you were there”, when they mean “I wish you had been there”. At least I’m pretty sure that’s how it’s supposed to be…

dsr_ 5y ago
Present: "He leads me to believe in grammatical rigor." Past: "She led me to that conclusion long ago." Past, growing popular but historically incorrect: "She lead me to that conclusion long ago." Noun: "I licked the sweet lead off the wall." Also noun: "After six rounds of chess-boxing-sprinting, it was not clear to either of the participants who had the lead." Also also popular but historically incorrect noun: "We have eighty thousand lead-free ornaments on this wall, each lit by an individually-addressable led."
- NoSorryCannot 5y ago
  This is spelling, not grammar. It's the same word, not a noun, spelled differently.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  And each led connected to power by its own lead. Incidentally, are those ornaments electrically-powered? Don't they need leads to provide power?
dsr_ 5y ago
"I wish you were here" -- in this location, now or in the past. "I wish you were there" -- at another location, now or in the past. "I wish you had been there" -- at another location, in the past. "had been" means that the action is concluded. "were" is for both continuing and concluded actions, and more words are necessary to glark it from context.
ghkbrew 5y ago
"I wish you were here." is grammatically correct in English. And yes it is the "subjunctive mood". Its meaning is closer to "I wish for you to be here" than "I wish you had been here". This random page I found on the internet has a pretty decent explanation of the subjunctive: https://www.learngrammar.net/a/examples-of-the-subjunctive-mood https://www.learngrammar.net/a/examples-of-the-subjunctive-m...
- secondcoming 5y ago
  "I wish you were _there_", not "I wish you were here"
bsder 5y ago
> I thought it was “led” It is "led". I notice the web using "lead" for both the present and past forms a lot--presumably because it sneaks past spelling checkers and autocorrect. (There's also a correspondence to "read" (long e) where "read" (short e) is also the past tense. Yeah, welcome to English.) And, I'm almost sorry for pointing it out if you haven't noticed it. Once you do notice it, you see it everywhere and it's a big, jarring speedbump when you read.
denton-scratch 5y ago
"Were" is the subjunctive. I think it comes to English from the German subjunctive form "wäre". It's not the same word as "were", as in "We were running". The example you've chosen refers to an event in the past, so "were" seems to be ambiguous in that context, because it could be "you were there", prefixed by I wish - i.e. the writer isn't trying to use the subjunctive at all, which I think is nowadays OK. "I wish you were here" is a clearer example. That is clearly present subjunctive. "I wish you had been here" would be referring to an event in the past - so that's some kind of past subjunctive. I regret the death of the subjunctive.

forgatmigej 5y ago

Some would say that a focus on proper grammar, expansive incorporated linguistical repertoires, and western/anglo-centric style is not inclusive. And I would agree. In line with your example, I have noticed "costed" used instead of "cost" increasingly often.

dsr_ 5y ago
"costed" is proper when referring to the past action of determining the price for something to purchase. "Last week Sheila costed out the parts list, so it should be accurate." "priced" is proper for both the past actions of determining the price of something to purchase or something to sell. "Last week Sheila priced out the parts list, so it should be accurate." "Last week Sheila priced everything on the shelves."
throwaway2077 5y ago
english is not esperanto. it happens to be the native language for a significant part of the world population, and they have no obligation to accept its bastardization for the sake of inclusivity. in every non-western country with its own language, those "some" would get rightfully ridiculed.
- tomcatfish 5y ago
  > bastardization What is this universal, pure English you've been speaking? I must have missed the tablets on which it was written? Non jokingly: There is no "bastardization" of a natural language. It is spoken how it is spoken and insisting otherwise is missing the point of language (I suggest it is "communication"). There is no King of English to sit and dictate the rules except for the common languages spoken. If you want to really grok the concept, take some time to figure out what a "language" actually is. I'll give you a hint: your first 5 definitions have obvious failings.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    I don't agree that contemporary usage defines the language. We have a canon of English literature reaching back centuries, and people use phrases from e.g. Shakespeare without eveen noticing they're doing it. I think it would be a shame if learning contemporary usage should fail to equip you to read Shakespeare. Descriptivism is all very well; but it doesn't seem to allow for any usage to be actually incorrect.

beardyw 5y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29274875#29276377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29274875#29276377 8 days ago, 3 times.

bsder 5y ago
Erm, at least one of those is unusually wrong: "The doors are not always hidden - they clearly separate these two worlds, and may also led to very nice places that are just not public." Presumably a typo.
- beardyw 5y ago
  True, and one of the others is mine - not really sure I can claim I read it! Still ... one.

denton-scratch 5y ago

Isn't that just ignorant spelling? I don't think that's a grammmar error. But I see it all the time.