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Why is everyone you're referencing -- and for that matter, you too -- so damn hysterical? Vinay Prasad, case in point: > When democratically elected systems tr

Why is everyone you're referencing -- and for that matter, you too -- so damn hysterical? Vinay Prasad, case in point: > When democratically elected systems transform into totalitarian regimes, the transition is subtle, stepwise, and involves a combination of pre-planned as well as serendipitous events. Indeed, this was the case with Germany in the years 1929-1939, where Hitler was given a chance at governing, the president subsequently died, a key general resigned after a scandal and the pathway to the Fuhrer was inevitable. It's a mask & a vaccine, not the beginning of the Third Reich. The fact that your sources can't see the two as different things (and not as part of some slippery slope), tells me they've already arrived at a conclusion and will ignore all contrary evidence. I know masks & vaccines feel oppressive -- but facts simply do not concern themselves with your feelings. There is a world of difference between the Third Reich and public health measures to slow the tide of preventable deaths. To be honest, I can't believe I'm having this debate here.

spookthesunset 5y ago
Humans are meant to see faces. Requiring people, including kids, to wear them for 8+ hours a day with absolutely no metric to get rid of them is insanity. Especially when said people are fully vaccinated. Vaccinated individuals have no business wearing a mask, period.
- flunhat 5y ago
  I will repeat myself one more time: Facts simply do not concern themselves with your feelings. I know it feels like oppression (a new Third Reich!!111!) & like there is no metric to get rid of masks, but your feelings alone do not make these true statements. The fact -- and we should concern ourselves with facts, not vague feelings or bouts of hysteria -- is that all of these measures will go away once the pandemic has abated to such an extent that it no longer poses a substantial threat to human lives. It's as simple as that: given that masks do an excellent job of slowing the spread, ceteris paribus, wearing a mask is better than not wearing one. This kind of "feelings logic" is why Trump lost, more or less -- most people are willing to undergo mild inconvenience to save lives & slow the spread of a deadly virus. Despite the feelings of frustration, which we all have.
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    Facts don’t dictate policy. Even if masks were incredibly effective so some point we’d have to stop wearing them. Now that we have countless effective medical interventions, I’d say that time is now. Vaccinated individuals have zero business being required to wear masks. They’ve done their part and should be able to return to a fully normal life. COVID is never going away. There is so much more to live for than being treated as a vector for exactly one disease. And what I said is a value statement. Facts or science have nothing to do with it besides they guided and informed my opinions.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      > Facts don’t dictate policy. And you don't see that as a problem?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - flunhat 5y ago
      > Facts don’t dictate policy They absolutely should, and I think this is an intractable disagreement we have. Sorry. But I agree that COVID is never going away -- I'm saying that all of these measures should go away once the pandemic has abated to such an extent that it no longer poses a substantial threat to human lives. I.e. there is a version of COVID where we have tamed its lethality to the point where it's a shadow of its former self.
      - rajup 5y ago
        > I.e. there is a version of COVID where we have tamed its lethality to the point where it's a shadow of its former self. We have that today.
    - cthalupa 5y ago
      > Vaccinated individuals have zero business being required to wear masks. They’ve done their part and should be able to return to a fully normal life. Masks help prevent you from spreading the virus to other. As a vaccinated individual, you are highly unlikely to have serious illness from CV19, but you can still get it and spread it to others, even if you are only mildly symptomatic. And this is based on data from the prior variants. Who knows how things are with Omicron - we need more data. >Humans are meant to see faces. Humans are/aren't meant to do X is a bad argument. We have made all sorts of behavioral changes over our time as a species. We adapt. I like having cars, and planes, and an industrialized society. But humans weren't "meant" to do any of that, until we did. All of these things have real, serious, drawbacks. But the overwhelming majority of people would agree that having these things is better than not having them. If the new normal is to have a deadly and highly transmissible disease with us from now until forever, then yes, masks should also be the new normal. I don't think that's the case - the stakes and motivation for figuring out alternatives is quite high - but if it is, then, well, it's better than the alternative.
timr 5y ago
> Why is everyone you're referencing -- and for that matter, you too -- so damn hysterical? I am calling for scientific studies. More data to justify our actions and guide our decisions. You are...calling me hysterical.
- flunhat 5y ago
  > you can barely say the results out loud lest you get silenced by the angry mob Please -- you're not being silenced, you are not some martyr, people are just disagreeing with you.
  - timr 5y ago
    For the record: I wasn't talking about me. There has been actual censorship throughout 2020. A lot of it, across all social-media platforms. I'm sure the downvoting here has nothing to do with the fact that comments get sorted to the bottom and grayed out.
    - flunhat 5y ago
      > I'm sure the downvoting here has nothing to do with the fact that comments get sorted to the bottom and grayed out. Would you stop with the hysteria? You're getting downvoted not only because people disagree with you, but also because you've managed to turn that disagreement into some kind of cause for martyrdom.
      - timr 5y ago
        > Would you stop with the hysteria? To quote you: "projection, plain & simple"
    - op00to 5y ago
      You really need to stop digging in.
- cthalupa 5y ago
  People post scientific studies, and you repeatedly go back to the same person who has shown an obvious political bias against masks and vaccines to attempt to debunk them. I'm just feeding into the problem by replying to you, but none of us can expect any discourse with you to be productive when you are working from a position that relies on believing someone acting in obvious bad faith.

spookthesunset 5y ago

Humans are meant to see faces. Requiring people, including kids, to wear them for 8+ hours a day with absolutely no metric to get rid of them is insanity. Especially when said people are fully vaccinated. Vaccinated individuals have no business wearing a mask, period.

flunhat 5y ago
I will repeat myself one more time: Facts simply do not concern themselves with your feelings. I know it feels like oppression (a new Third Reich!!111!) & like there is no metric to get rid of masks, but your feelings alone do not make these true statements. The fact -- and we should concern ourselves with facts, not vague feelings or bouts of hysteria -- is that all of these measures will go away once the pandemic has abated to such an extent that it no longer poses a substantial threat to human lives. It's as simple as that: given that masks do an excellent job of slowing the spread, ceteris paribus, wearing a mask is better than not wearing one. This kind of "feelings logic" is why Trump lost, more or less -- most people are willing to undergo mild inconvenience to save lives & slow the spread of a deadly virus. Despite the feelings of frustration, which we all have.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  Facts don’t dictate policy. Even if masks were incredibly effective so some point we’d have to stop wearing them. Now that we have countless effective medical interventions, I’d say that time is now. Vaccinated individuals have zero business being required to wear masks. They’ve done their part and should be able to return to a fully normal life. COVID is never going away. There is so much more to live for than being treated as a vector for exactly one disease. And what I said is a value statement. Facts or science have nothing to do with it besides they guided and informed my opinions.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    > Facts don’t dictate policy. And you don't see that as a problem?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - flunhat 5y ago
    > Facts don’t dictate policy They absolutely should, and I think this is an intractable disagreement we have. Sorry. But I agree that COVID is never going away -- I'm saying that all of these measures should go away once the pandemic has abated to such an extent that it no longer poses a substantial threat to human lives. I.e. there is a version of COVID where we have tamed its lethality to the point where it's a shadow of its former self.
    - rajup 5y ago
      > I.e. there is a version of COVID where we have tamed its lethality to the point where it's a shadow of its former self. We have that today.
  - cthalupa 5y ago
    > Vaccinated individuals have zero business being required to wear masks. They’ve done their part and should be able to return to a fully normal life. Masks help prevent you from spreading the virus to other. As a vaccinated individual, you are highly unlikely to have serious illness from CV19, but you can still get it and spread it to others, even if you are only mildly symptomatic. And this is based on data from the prior variants. Who knows how things are with Omicron - we need more data. >Humans are meant to see faces. Humans are/aren't meant to do X is a bad argument. We have made all sorts of behavioral changes over our time as a species. We adapt. I like having cars, and planes, and an industrialized society. But humans weren't "meant" to do any of that, until we did. All of these things have real, serious, drawbacks. But the overwhelming majority of people would agree that having these things is better than not having them. If the new normal is to have a deadly and highly transmissible disease with us from now until forever, then yes, masks should also be the new normal. I don't think that's the case - the stakes and motivation for figuring out alternatives is quite high - but if it is, then, well, it's better than the alternative.

timr 5y ago

> Why is everyone you're referencing -- and for that matter, you too -- so damn hysterical? I am calling for scientific studies. More data to justify our actions and guide our decisions. You are...calling me hysterical.

flunhat 5y ago
> you can barely say the results out loud lest you get silenced by the angry mob Please -- you're not being silenced, you are not some martyr, people are just disagreeing with you.
- timr 5y ago
  For the record: I wasn't talking about me. There has been actual censorship throughout 2020. A lot of it, across all social-media platforms. I'm sure the downvoting here has nothing to do with the fact that comments get sorted to the bottom and grayed out.
  - flunhat 5y ago
    > I'm sure the downvoting here has nothing to do with the fact that comments get sorted to the bottom and grayed out. Would you stop with the hysteria? You're getting downvoted not only because people disagree with you, but also because you've managed to turn that disagreement into some kind of cause for martyrdom.
    - timr 5y ago
      > Would you stop with the hysteria? To quote you: "projection, plain & simple"
  - op00to 5y ago
    You really need to stop digging in.
cthalupa 5y ago
People post scientific studies, and you repeatedly go back to the same person who has shown an obvious political bias against masks and vaccines to attempt to debunk them. I'm just feeding into the problem by replying to you, but none of us can expect any discourse with you to be productive when you are working from a position that relies on believing someone acting in obvious bad faith.