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EU tech sector fights for a Level Playing Field with Microsoft

110 points by thibautg 5y ago

bnt 5y ago
Ok, but then force Android and macOS to unbundle their crap. Why do I have to use Chrome and Gmail as default? Why do I get force fed iMessage, Safari and iCloud?
- rolandog 5y ago
  Agreed. Please unbundle everything!
- agust 5y ago
  Also unbundle Safari from iOS and put an end to the browser engines ban. That's far worse than default software on Windows and Android.
  - apetrovic 5y ago
    Yup, the Chrome monoculture will save us all.
    - echelon 5y ago
      I want real Firefox on iOS. Not a shoddy safari skin.
    - agust 5y ago
      Opening iOS to competing browser engines is unlikely to lead to Chrome being dominant there. Safari has more than 60% market share on macOS where they've never been banned. What it could lead to though is some real investment in Safari from Apple's part, which is very much needed considering how buggy and behind competition it is. That way maybe the web will indeed be able to compete with native as they already falsely claim it can.
    - tehbeard 5y ago
      Because the Safari monoculture on iOS right now is so much better and totally not a buggy ass mess... /s
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  > Chrome and Gmail as default? You don't... You can have Firefox and Outlook as defaults if you want. Ever use a Samsung phone? It comes bundled with a bunch of Samsung and MS crap, despite being Android. Samsung has their own web browser, their own store...
  - bnt 5y ago
    Let me rephrase, force Google not to ship Chrome and their apps by default on Android, and completely remove login/registration when first starting the phone.
KODeKarnage 5y ago
"EU tech sector fights to have an EU judge reset the scoreboard to zero after decades of losing the game against Microsoft"
bserge 5y ago
So that means more investment and better wages, right? Right? Look at those quotes. "We can't compete so we're bitching about it, maybe the EU can help us". I mean, don't get me wrong, I also hate how a few big platforms dominate everything. But that's exactly what "the people should be free to choose" led to. Now they don't like it. The people "should be free to choose... as long as they choose us" huh. Maybe if the best employees weren't working for Microsoft because your wages are shit and your management is shittier, and you actually had someone with 2 brain cells doing marketing... But nah, the EU can fight for you. We'll all use inferior shit, but at least it's gonna be local. Like Telekom and Vodafone.
hvgk 5y ago
You don’t have to use their crap. I don’t. It is chosen by businesses and individuals because it’s about the only complete solution out there (even if it is a monumental shit show) which is cost effective. Either that or they are ignorant or genuinely like it. The EU tech sector needs to build something better. LibreOffice and Linux as it stands is not it. I tried over and over again to use it but it’s just not good. I’m lurking in the leper colony of iCloud, Sheets and Numbers for reference and do most of my stuff on iOS. It’s different but not better.
- xxpor 5y ago
  It seems like (anecdotally) there's a decent number of shops that are 100% linux for servers, except there will still be an AD + Exchange setup because there's really no comprehensive solution in the open source world, like you said.
  - hvgk 5y ago
    That is exactly how my employer works. I use O365 outlook web access begrudgingly.
- rolandog 5y ago
  > The EU tech sector needs to build something better. LibreOffice and Linux as it stands is not it. I tried over and over again to use it but it’s just not good. Can you elaborate? I have had quite a nice experience on the Linux ecosystem and with LibreOffice too. But there's usually a point where you realize that "this should've been a script" ™. I do concede that Excel pushes that point further down the road with what I remember to be better performance when working with bigger files, but by no means something so drastic.
  - atian 5y ago
    > But there's usually a point where you realize that "this should've been a script" ™. There is less accountability for essential business functions that a product provides.
ThalesX 5y ago
When I, as a European Union citizen, want to watch some videos of how to access European funds for investments on the EU Commission's website, they are all securely hosted in European Data Centers, using a nicely European-built streaming service to play them. Just kidding, they embed YouTube, an American company. I think until the weird robed cultists that run the EU find some time between their Brussels orgies to encourage innovation inside the EU borders, we'll only be using fines and legalese to even the playing field with the rest of the world.
- nickff 5y ago
  >"I think until [those] that run the EU find some time between their Brussels [meetings and conferences] to encourage innovation inside the EU borders, we'll only be using fines and legalese to even the playing field with the rest of the world." The real question is what the limits of government support and 'encouragement' are. It seems like governments are capable of enacting massive infusions of capital into stable industries, but there aren't many cases where the government itself created 'innovation'. There are arguments to be made around semiconductors and the military (and similar examples), but that was mostly the government fostering the demand side, not really 'taking charge'. There is no lack of demand for software products in the EU, but there does seem to be a distinct lack of innovation.
  - ThalesX 5y ago
    > The real question is what the limits of government support and 'encouragement' are. In this case, they could encourage European competitors to YouTube by using their services and infusing them with some capital. By digitalizing the processes across the union, and by again, using European services. They certainly have the money; maybe they can spend a bit less on those "[meetings and conferences]". I'll give you another example. Because Germany is big in Pharma, they encourage the pharma industry along with its research and development. Because of this, when the pandemic hit, we were already exploring some interesting options. This should be the tech case also, not just pharma. "but that was mostly the government fostering the demand side" - this is a great way to do it, yes. > there aren't many cases where the government itself created 'innovation' Maybe my understanding is wrong, but I feel like a lot of innovation comes from heavy government-backed entities. And then the capitalists come and distribute these innovations in various forms to the population.
jsnell 5y ago
The press release claims they've filed a formal complaint. Can anyone find a link to it? Because complaining just about OneDrive/Teams being pre-installed in Windows seems like pretty weak sauce.
axiosgunnar 5y ago
It‘s actually very simple: Ban FAANGs from public procurement in the EU. That‘s it. Watch them squirm, pocket their billions spent on lobbying, and then say „sorry no“ and ban them from all public procurement processes, in all countries in the EU. In 10 years, Europe will be a software superpower.
- geoffcline 5y ago
  F: not sure how much public procurement they are doing A(pple): seems unrelated and unhelpful to ban this large hardware firm if the goal is to be a "software superpower". A(mazon): ok sure, build your own europe cloud. N: lol G: excellent idea to ban the only major competitor to microsoft office? chrome os for schools, gmail for business compared to exchange, etc.
- mrkstu 5y ago
  So start a trade war and ghettoize the entire EU software industry in one fell swoop?
- echelon 5y ago
  MAGMA [1] is more appropriate now. [1] Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Meta, Apple
  - wanderingmind 5y ago
    Or MAAMA (Alphabet instead of Google)
    - phh 5y ago
      I prefer MAMAAN while we're there (which would translate to moom from french)
      - nickpeterson 5y ago
        Or “my man” the way Denzel would say it.
  - 5y ago
Mikeb85 5y ago
On one hand, I hate MS. On the other hand, EU tech companies need to be better and EU consumers need to support them. Step 1: all the tech companies should stop using Windows (and MacOS for that matter). They whine about MS but still use their products. So use Linux, use LibreOffice, use EU based email or roll your own, develop software on open standards, etc... Look at what the non-MS (and non-Apple) FAANGs do; they use OSS operating systems, tech stacks and build their whole infrastructure on open tech and standards, apart from a few proprietary bits rolled in-house. EU tech's problem is that they all try to be MS but aren't. None of them seem to model what they do on the successful non-MS/Apple big tech companies.
- jimbob45 5y ago
  It sounds like you’re advocating for using local products rather than the best products available. That’s fine but it’s not something that will ultimately benefit the EU after China and the US retaliate in kind.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    Absolutely advocating supporting local businesses. Just like I advocate using OSS. Is an EU company going to make a better search engine than Google on day one? Is any company going to be an absolute world-beater on day one? Sometimes voting with your wallet means supporting something you want to succeed... I mean, I'll never use MS products nor buy an Apple product, ever. Not even if they have the nicest X. Because I don't like the prospect of a world where it's only MS/Apple. So I use products that are good for an open world as much as possible. In the real world, people support local businesses. People support small business and hand-made products, even if it's more expensive. Because that's how you grow your local economy.
    - moonchrome 5y ago
      >In the real world, people support local businesses. People support small business and hand-made products, even if it's more expensive. Because that's how you grow your local economy. That's fine as a consumer. But as a business and a professional I don't have time to muck around with half-baked "local" solutions when better solutions exist.
geoffcline 5y ago
their demands > No gate keeping (by bundling, pre-installing or pushing Microsoft services) for a level playing field. > Open standards and interoperability that make an easy migration possible. This gives consumers a free choice. poorly defined and vague. what is "gate keeping"? what is a "level playing field"? migration of what? what is envisioned by open standards? what is a free choice?
- adventured 5y ago
  It's intentionally vague and poorly defined. That's the point. They want the government to hamper the competition. The less defined the better if that's your aim. They want to say just enough to get the government to act, and not so much that they restrict potential government action ahead of time. They want to spur government movement on the subject broadly, not pursue a very specific course of action.
BlueTemplar 5y ago
Yeah, I sometimes wonder why the GAFAMs haven't been kicked out of the EU yet...
andrew_eit 5y ago
Does anyone have any good arguments for why we lack any serious blue-chip competitors in the EU? I mean we have things like Spotify and SAP (though they're b2b). But I really can't see any parallels with the US tech industry. There really is no company that comes to mind in the EU where I think "yeah that's where all the software engineers want to go to". Also what I find super weird is that actually, a lot of the other industries are providing the golden ticket type jobs for SDEs that, in the US, would be reserved for FAANG. For example VW has some pretty great Digital "labs", pay is quite high, and they're even one of the biggest forces investing in quantum research, funding phd programmes and the like.
- lrem 5y ago
  What we're missing is the valley, where huge piles of cash are in search of anywhere to go to. Where as little as a sales pitch can give you backing to hire fifty people for two years... After which everyone figures out the idea wasn't any good, investors didn't win on this ticket. And you proceed to think of your next pitch, with nobody holding the previous failure against you. Or, so I've heard.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  How far along is the Texas Gigafactory in Texas? I think they started later than Berlin, but may finish first? There may just be too much bureaucracy in Europe, too much socialism... People here don't want to be part of a company that does exciting things, they just want a well paid job they can't be fired from because the union protects them.
  - andrew_eit 5y ago
    " too much socialism" This is a vague and exaggerated statement, it makes you sound quite biased. If we're going to argue in that direction then let me point out that China has "way more socialism" (as you put it) than Europe, yet their lightening speed in making advancements in their private tech sector, digitalisation and even scientific research such as computer vision and quantum computing puts even the US to shame. "People here don't want to be part of a company that does exciting things" Absolutely false. Have you ever spoken to anyone at a German car company? They live and die for the pride they have working with their "team". Same goes for other Mittelstand companies, employees tend to be very loyal and have a personal relationship with their company and product, even if it is as simple as a company making world-class pencils. Maybe this is because of all the "socialism" (i.e. reasonable amount of time off and workers rights and being treated like a human with a personal life) That is not to say that there aren't groups of long-tenured 20 year+ employees at such corporations who occupy a cushy job with almost no chance of being fired. Yes they exist, and I've met them. But I think you're trying to equate the mindset in Europe to the American ideal of the individual person doing something that 'CHANGES THE WORLD'. Europeans certainly dream and want to do exciting things that make the world a better place, but the way to do this isn't exclusively held by this radical capitalist view (I say this as a believer capitalism) that one man/woman with an idea can change the world. I think we take on a more longer-term view, taking the time to research, perfect one's craft and slowly make small steps of change that last longer. And I think this view and mindset is what drives so much medical and scientific innovation in Europe.
094459 5y ago
The EU tech companies only have themselves to blame in my view. I’ve been working in tech for over 30 years and it was precisely those EU tech companies that created crap products and treated their customers like crap, that made consumers and businesses look elsewhere. I have very little sympathy I’m afraid as if I’m a business or even providing public services I want the best products, support and customer service. That is all it takes to compete, so let’s see some EU tech companies stop whinging and start serving customers with amazing products and even better service. I’ve seen it in pockets, so I know the potential is there.
- ilayn 5y ago
  You should remember browser wars, PHP vs. ASP, Oracle vs Server, on and on and on. I am not saying I took already side with this statement. But I know enough about how Microsoft sneaks in the check under your glass when you are not looking. The biggest dick move currently MS and Amazon is trying to pull off for example is forcing IoT world into OPC foundation together with Rockwell Automation which is originating from EU mind you. There are absolutely better tools from EU and APAC (and from US too) etc. and if we follow your argument some IoT provider has to build a full cloud offering, compete with GCP, AWS and Azure just to earn the right to exist. That is not how leverage works. So in that sense, they are just pushing every service in your face just to install Windows to your own machine which you bought with your own money. The statement doesn't ask for favors, it asks for level playing field.
- adventured 5y ago
  On top of that you can add the ~40 years of tech industry brain drain from compensating their employees so poorly versus what US companies were/are willing to do. The only thing that can build out a competitive EU tech industry is US venture capital, which will put down the enormous, very willing risk capital required to dramatically alter the landscape permanently. As US venture capital floods that market and spikes salaries, there will be no going back (most likely). That transformation process may be underway at present judging from US VC interest in Europe. The only other venture capital on the planet comparable in capability and scale is in China. If it's just left to EU VC, it'll take forever.
nodamage 5y ago
> Microsoft is integrating 365 deeper and deeper in their service and software portfolio, including Windows. OneDrive is pushed wherever users deal with file storage and Teams is a default part of Windows 11. This makes it nearly impossible to compete with their SaaS services. Am I the only one that doesn't see what the big deal is here? The integration of cameras into smartphones wrecked the digital camera industry but I've never heard of a digital camera company petitioning the government to ban cameras from being bundled with smartphones to "allow a level playing field". How is this different?
- Jensson 5y ago
  > How is this different? It is pretty hard to install a camera in a phone, but it is pretty easy to install a program on a computer. That makes a really big difference as to where we should accept bundling as a good thing and where we should see it as a bad thing.
  - nodamage 5y ago
    If ease of installation is the determining factor then Garmin should be allowed to petition the government to ban Apple and Google from shipping maps apps on their devices in order to ensure a level playing field for their GPS sales?
    - bpye 5y ago
      Sure, maybe maps apps shouldn’t be preinstalled or we should have something on setup that allows you to pick between a set of different apps for maps.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Indeed Apple and Google could be engaged in dumping, using their revenue from another market to sell maps service below cost to bancrupt the competition.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    That explains why the most used browser on Microsoft's platform is made by a third party (Google). Seems it doesn't really prevent competition.
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
People already have a free choice. I hate bullshit like that. And the last thing I want is governments making rules for API design.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Yeah, i hate the ruled that make all the power sockets fit together!
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Because without governments, there would be no matching power sockets? Bullshit. And APIs are way more complicated than that. You want a government standard for social networks, so they all have the same features? Essentially it would be frozen how social networks work, and we would be stuck with that forever? Or if we are lucky, we can elect a committee that decides on new features and gets paid billions of tax payer money?
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      "And APIs are way more complicated than that." APIs for crappy social networks are not more complicated that the needs of electrical safety, power transmission, etc. you should pick up a book on electrical engineering, maybe then you'd learn to respect 'real' engineering where you can't get away with spit balling everything the way we do in software design. If mechanical engineers had the attitude developers do, planes would be falling out of the sky, and civilisation would have collapsed and died of famine.
gundmc 5y ago
I know this is somewhat tied to the point they are making, but I was interested to see that I don't recognize a single one of the signatory companies on that page.
flipbrad 5y ago
We're making it worse, not better, with the absolutely insane amount of digital regulation that the EU, the EU' national governments, and the UK, have been pushing these past 7 years and are continuing to step up almost incessantly. The number of major new digital laws being considered by our legislators is staggering. Even the lawyers can't keep up, let alone the companies meant to be scaling, trying things out and competing under all that. Quantity does not equal quality, when it comes to regulation.
jimmiebtlr 5y ago
idk why people still use microsoft stuff, only quality thing coming from microsoft is their hardware. Really can’t imagine a niche they have a monopoly in.
VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
> Microsoft, Google and Amazon have grown their market share to 66% of the total European market, with local providers contracting from 26% to 16%. While it's certainly a problem that USA companies are swallowing the EU market, the EU has done nothing whatsoever to help itself compete with these companies. It is nearly impossible to start a "startup" company anywhere in the EU. The overwhelming bureaucracy and risk-averseness of obtaining capital and venture investment drives the European founders out of the EU and to USA so they can get some money to start-up their little company. This is not a problem with Google, Microsoft, or Amazon consuming the EU. This is a problem with the EU. They just can't make anything themselves.
StreamBright 5y ago
The EUs biggest problem is twofold as I can see it. (I have been working in the US and in the EU as well in tech). - legislation that hinders progress - wage & equity structure

110 points by thibautg 5y ago

bnt 5y ago

Ok, but then force Android and macOS to unbundle their crap. Why do I have to use Chrome and Gmail as default? Why do I get force fed iMessage, Safari and iCloud?

rolandog 5y ago
Agreed. Please unbundle everything!
agust 5y ago
Also unbundle Safari from iOS and put an end to the browser engines ban. That's far worse than default software on Windows and Android.
- apetrovic 5y ago
  Yup, the Chrome monoculture will save us all.
  - echelon 5y ago
    I want real Firefox on iOS. Not a shoddy safari skin.
  - agust 5y ago
    Opening iOS to competing browser engines is unlikely to lead to Chrome being dominant there. Safari has more than 60% market share on macOS where they've never been banned. What it could lead to though is some real investment in Safari from Apple's part, which is very much needed considering how buggy and behind competition it is. That way maybe the web will indeed be able to compete with native as they already falsely claim it can.
  - tehbeard 5y ago
    Because the Safari monoculture on iOS right now is so much better and totally not a buggy ass mess... /s
Mikeb85 5y ago
> Chrome and Gmail as default? You don't... You can have Firefox and Outlook as defaults if you want. Ever use a Samsung phone? It comes bundled with a bunch of Samsung and MS crap, despite being Android. Samsung has their own web browser, their own store...
- bnt 5y ago
  Let me rephrase, force Google not to ship Chrome and their apps by default on Android, and completely remove login/registration when first starting the phone.

KODeKarnage 5y ago

"EU tech sector fights to have an EU judge reset the scoreboard to zero after decades of losing the game against Microsoft"

bserge 5y ago

So that means more investment and better wages, right? Right? Look at those quotes. "We can't compete so we're bitching about it, maybe the EU can help us". I mean, don't get me wrong, I also hate how a few big platforms dominate everything. But that's exactly what "the people should be free to choose" led to. Now they don't like it. The people "should be free to choose... as long as they choose us" huh. Maybe if the best employees weren't working for Microsoft because your wages are shit and your management is shittier, and you actually had someone with 2 brain cells doing marketing... But nah, the EU can fight for you. We'll all use inferior shit, but at least it's gonna be local. Like Telekom and Vodafone.

hvgk 5y ago

You don’t have to use their crap. I don’t. It is chosen by businesses and individuals because it’s about the only complete solution out there (even if it is a monumental shit show) which is cost effective. Either that or they are ignorant or genuinely like it. The EU tech sector needs to build something better. LibreOffice and Linux as it stands is not it. I tried over and over again to use it but it’s just not good. I’m lurking in the leper colony of iCloud, Sheets and Numbers for reference and do most of my stuff on iOS. It’s different but not better.

xxpor 5y ago
It seems like (anecdotally) there's a decent number of shops that are 100% linux for servers, except there will still be an AD + Exchange setup because there's really no comprehensive solution in the open source world, like you said.
- hvgk 5y ago
  That is exactly how my employer works. I use O365 outlook web access begrudgingly.
rolandog 5y ago
> The EU tech sector needs to build something better. LibreOffice and Linux as it stands is not it. I tried over and over again to use it but it’s just not good. Can you elaborate? I have had quite a nice experience on the Linux ecosystem and with LibreOffice too. But there's usually a point where you realize that "this should've been a script" ™. I do concede that Excel pushes that point further down the road with what I remember to be better performance when working with bigger files, but by no means something so drastic.
- atian 5y ago
  > But there's usually a point where you realize that "this should've been a script" ™. There is less accountability for essential business functions that a product provides.

ThalesX 5y ago

When I, as a European Union citizen, want to watch some videos of how to access European funds for investments on the EU Commission's website, they are all securely hosted in European Data Centers, using a nicely European-built streaming service to play them. Just kidding, they embed YouTube, an American company. I think until the weird robed cultists that run the EU find some time between their Brussels orgies to encourage innovation inside the EU borders, we'll only be using fines and legalese to even the playing field with the rest of the world.

nickff 5y ago
>"I think until [those] that run the EU find some time between their Brussels [meetings and conferences] to encourage innovation inside the EU borders, we'll only be using fines and legalese to even the playing field with the rest of the world." The real question is what the limits of government support and 'encouragement' are. It seems like governments are capable of enacting massive infusions of capital into stable industries, but there aren't many cases where the government itself created 'innovation'. There are arguments to be made around semiconductors and the military (and similar examples), but that was mostly the government fostering the demand side, not really 'taking charge'. There is no lack of demand for software products in the EU, but there does seem to be a distinct lack of innovation.
- ThalesX 5y ago
  > The real question is what the limits of government support and 'encouragement' are. In this case, they could encourage European competitors to YouTube by using their services and infusing them with some capital. By digitalizing the processes across the union, and by again, using European services. They certainly have the money; maybe they can spend a bit less on those "[meetings and conferences]". I'll give you another example. Because Germany is big in Pharma, they encourage the pharma industry along with its research and development. Because of this, when the pandemic hit, we were already exploring some interesting options. This should be the tech case also, not just pharma. "but that was mostly the government fostering the demand side" - this is a great way to do it, yes. > there aren't many cases where the government itself created 'innovation' Maybe my understanding is wrong, but I feel like a lot of innovation comes from heavy government-backed entities. And then the capitalists come and distribute these innovations in various forms to the population.

jsnell 5y ago

The press release claims they've filed a formal complaint. Can anyone find a link to it? Because complaining just about OneDrive/Teams being pre-installed in Windows seems like pretty weak sauce.

axiosgunnar 5y ago

It‘s actually very simple: Ban FAANGs from public procurement in the EU. That‘s it. Watch them squirm, pocket their billions spent on lobbying, and then say „sorry no“ and ban them from all public procurement processes, in all countries in the EU. In 10 years, Europe will be a software superpower.

geoffcline 5y ago
F: not sure how much public procurement they are doing A(pple): seems unrelated and unhelpful to ban this large hardware firm if the goal is to be a "software superpower". A(mazon): ok sure, build your own europe cloud. N: lol G: excellent idea to ban the only major competitor to microsoft office? chrome os for schools, gmail for business compared to exchange, etc.
mrkstu 5y ago
So start a trade war and ghettoize the entire EU software industry in one fell swoop?
echelon 5y ago
MAGMA [1] is more appropriate now. [1] Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Meta, Apple
- wanderingmind 5y ago
  Or MAAMA (Alphabet instead of Google)
  - phh 5y ago
    I prefer MAMAAN while we're there (which would translate to moom from french)
    - nickpeterson 5y ago
      Or “my man” the way Denzel would say it.
- 5y ago

Mikeb85 5y ago

On one hand, I hate MS. On the other hand, EU tech companies need to be better and EU consumers need to support them. Step 1: all the tech companies should stop using Windows (and MacOS for that matter). They whine about MS but still use their products. So use Linux, use LibreOffice, use EU based email or roll your own, develop software on open standards, etc... Look at what the non-MS (and non-Apple) FAANGs do; they use OSS operating systems, tech stacks and build their whole infrastructure on open tech and standards, apart from a few proprietary bits rolled in-house. EU tech's problem is that they all try to be MS but aren't. None of them seem to model what they do on the successful non-MS/Apple big tech companies.

jimbob45 5y ago
It sounds like you’re advocating for using local products rather than the best products available. That’s fine but it’s not something that will ultimately benefit the EU after China and the US retaliate in kind.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  Absolutely advocating supporting local businesses. Just like I advocate using OSS. Is an EU company going to make a better search engine than Google on day one? Is any company going to be an absolute world-beater on day one? Sometimes voting with your wallet means supporting something you want to succeed... I mean, I'll never use MS products nor buy an Apple product, ever. Not even if they have the nicest X. Because I don't like the prospect of a world where it's only MS/Apple. So I use products that are good for an open world as much as possible. In the real world, people support local businesses. People support small business and hand-made products, even if it's more expensive. Because that's how you grow your local economy.
  - moonchrome 5y ago
    >In the real world, people support local businesses. People support small business and hand-made products, even if it's more expensive. Because that's how you grow your local economy. That's fine as a consumer. But as a business and a professional I don't have time to muck around with half-baked "local" solutions when better solutions exist.

geoffcline 5y ago

their demands > No gate keeping (by bundling, pre-installing or pushing Microsoft services) for a level playing field. > Open standards and interoperability that make an easy migration possible. This gives consumers a free choice. poorly defined and vague. what is "gate keeping"? what is a "level playing field"? migration of what? what is envisioned by open standards? what is a free choice?

adventured 5y ago
It's intentionally vague and poorly defined. That's the point. They want the government to hamper the competition. The less defined the better if that's your aim. They want to say just enough to get the government to act, and not so much that they restrict potential government action ahead of time. They want to spur government movement on the subject broadly, not pursue a very specific course of action.

BlueTemplar 5y ago

Yeah, I sometimes wonder why the GAFAMs haven't been kicked out of the EU yet...

andrew_eit 5y ago

Does anyone have any good arguments for why we lack any serious blue-chip competitors in the EU? I mean we have things like Spotify and SAP (though they're b2b). But I really can't see any parallels with the US tech industry. There really is no company that comes to mind in the EU where I think "yeah that's where all the software engineers want to go to". Also what I find super weird is that actually, a lot of the other industries are providing the golden ticket type jobs for SDEs that, in the US, would be reserved for FAANG. For example VW has some pretty great Digital "labs", pay is quite high, and they're even one of the biggest forces investing in quantum research, funding phd programmes and the like.

lrem 5y ago
What we're missing is the valley, where huge piles of cash are in search of anywhere to go to. Where as little as a sales pitch can give you backing to hire fifty people for two years... After which everyone figures out the idea wasn't any good, investors didn't win on this ticket. And you proceed to think of your next pitch, with nobody holding the previous failure against you. Or, so I've heard.
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
How far along is the Texas Gigafactory in Texas? I think they started later than Berlin, but may finish first? There may just be too much bureaucracy in Europe, too much socialism... People here don't want to be part of a company that does exciting things, they just want a well paid job they can't be fired from because the union protects them.
- andrew_eit 5y ago
  " too much socialism" This is a vague and exaggerated statement, it makes you sound quite biased. If we're going to argue in that direction then let me point out that China has "way more socialism" (as you put it) than Europe, yet their lightening speed in making advancements in their private tech sector, digitalisation and even scientific research such as computer vision and quantum computing puts even the US to shame. "People here don't want to be part of a company that does exciting things" Absolutely false. Have you ever spoken to anyone at a German car company? They live and die for the pride they have working with their "team". Same goes for other Mittelstand companies, employees tend to be very loyal and have a personal relationship with their company and product, even if it is as simple as a company making world-class pencils. Maybe this is because of all the "socialism" (i.e. reasonable amount of time off and workers rights and being treated like a human with a personal life) That is not to say that there aren't groups of long-tenured 20 year+ employees at such corporations who occupy a cushy job with almost no chance of being fired. Yes they exist, and I've met them. But I think you're trying to equate the mindset in Europe to the American ideal of the individual person doing something that 'CHANGES THE WORLD'. Europeans certainly dream and want to do exciting things that make the world a better place, but the way to do this isn't exclusively held by this radical capitalist view (I say this as a believer capitalism) that one man/woman with an idea can change the world. I think we take on a more longer-term view, taking the time to research, perfect one's craft and slowly make small steps of change that last longer. And I think this view and mindset is what drives so much medical and scientific innovation in Europe.

094459 5y ago

The EU tech companies only have themselves to blame in my view. I’ve been working in tech for over 30 years and it was precisely those EU tech companies that created crap products and treated their customers like crap, that made consumers and businesses look elsewhere. I have very little sympathy I’m afraid as if I’m a business or even providing public services I want the best products, support and customer service. That is all it takes to compete, so let’s see some EU tech companies stop whinging and start serving customers with amazing products and even better service. I’ve seen it in pockets, so I know the potential is there.

ilayn 5y ago
You should remember browser wars, PHP vs. ASP, Oracle vs Server, on and on and on. I am not saying I took already side with this statement. But I know enough about how Microsoft sneaks in the check under your glass when you are not looking. The biggest dick move currently MS and Amazon is trying to pull off for example is forcing IoT world into OPC foundation together with Rockwell Automation which is originating from EU mind you. There are absolutely better tools from EU and APAC (and from US too) etc. and if we follow your argument some IoT provider has to build a full cloud offering, compete with GCP, AWS and Azure just to earn the right to exist. That is not how leverage works. So in that sense, they are just pushing every service in your face just to install Windows to your own machine which you bought with your own money. The statement doesn't ask for favors, it asks for level playing field.
adventured 5y ago
On top of that you can add the ~40 years of tech industry brain drain from compensating their employees so poorly versus what US companies were/are willing to do. The only thing that can build out a competitive EU tech industry is US venture capital, which will put down the enormous, very willing risk capital required to dramatically alter the landscape permanently. As US venture capital floods that market and spikes salaries, there will be no going back (most likely). That transformation process may be underway at present judging from US VC interest in Europe. The only other venture capital on the planet comparable in capability and scale is in China. If it's just left to EU VC, it'll take forever.

nodamage 5y ago

> Microsoft is integrating 365 deeper and deeper in their service and software portfolio, including Windows. OneDrive is pushed wherever users deal with file storage and Teams is a default part of Windows 11. This makes it nearly impossible to compete with their SaaS services. Am I the only one that doesn't see what the big deal is here? The integration of cameras into smartphones wrecked the digital camera industry but I've never heard of a digital camera company petitioning the government to ban cameras from being bundled with smartphones to "allow a level playing field". How is this different?

Jensson 5y ago
> How is this different? It is pretty hard to install a camera in a phone, but it is pretty easy to install a program on a computer. That makes a really big difference as to where we should accept bundling as a good thing and where we should see it as a bad thing.
- nodamage 5y ago
  If ease of installation is the determining factor then Garmin should be allowed to petition the government to ban Apple and Google from shipping maps apps on their devices in order to ensure a level playing field for their GPS sales?
  - bpye 5y ago
    Sure, maybe maps apps shouldn’t be preinstalled or we should have something on setup that allows you to pick between a set of different apps for maps.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Indeed Apple and Google could be engaged in dumping, using their revenue from another market to sell maps service below cost to bancrupt the competition.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  That explains why the most used browser on Microsoft's platform is made by a third party (Google). Seems it doesn't really prevent competition.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago

People already have a free choice. I hate bullshit like that. And the last thing I want is governments making rules for API design.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Yeah, i hate the ruled that make all the power sockets fit together!
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Because without governments, there would be no matching power sockets? Bullshit. And APIs are way more complicated than that. You want a government standard for social networks, so they all have the same features? Essentially it would be frozen how social networks work, and we would be stuck with that forever? Or if we are lucky, we can elect a committee that decides on new features and gets paid billions of tax payer money?
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "And APIs are way more complicated than that." APIs for crappy social networks are not more complicated that the needs of electrical safety, power transmission, etc. you should pick up a book on electrical engineering, maybe then you'd learn to respect 'real' engineering where you can't get away with spit balling everything the way we do in software design. If mechanical engineers had the attitude developers do, planes would be falling out of the sky, and civilisation would have collapsed and died of famine.

gundmc 5y ago

I know this is somewhat tied to the point they are making, but I was interested to see that I don't recognize a single one of the signatory companies on that page.

flipbrad 5y ago

We're making it worse, not better, with the absolutely insane amount of digital regulation that the EU, the EU' national governments, and the UK, have been pushing these past 7 years and are continuing to step up almost incessantly. The number of major new digital laws being considered by our legislators is staggering. Even the lawyers can't keep up, let alone the companies meant to be scaling, trying things out and competing under all that. Quantity does not equal quality, when it comes to regulation.

jimmiebtlr 5y ago

idk why people still use microsoft stuff, only quality thing coming from microsoft is their hardware. Really can’t imagine a niche they have a monopoly in.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago

> Microsoft, Google and Amazon have grown their market share to 66% of the total European market, with local providers contracting from 26% to 16%. While it's certainly a problem that USA companies are swallowing the EU market, the EU has done nothing whatsoever to help itself compete with these companies. It is nearly impossible to start a "startup" company anywhere in the EU. The overwhelming bureaucracy and risk-averseness of obtaining capital and venture investment drives the European founders out of the EU and to USA so they can get some money to start-up their little company. This is not a problem with Google, Microsoft, or Amazon consuming the EU. This is a problem with the EU. They just can't make anything themselves.

StreamBright 5y ago

The EUs biggest problem is twofold as I can see it. (I have been working in the US and in the EU as well in tech). - legislation that hinders progress - wage & equity structure