5 ms·

> The solution is probably a blend of: pay teachers more, give them more autonomy, banish smartphones in the classroom, more accountability for abjectly-shitty

by bsder 5y ago

> The solution is probably a blend of: pay teachers more, give them more autonomy, banish smartphones in the classroom, more accountability for abjectly-shitty parenting and a reduction of our total obsession over standardization of outcomes. We are where parents chose to be with respect to education. Nothing more, nothing less. Parents wanted accountability--so we have standardization of outcomes. Parents say they want autonomy and discipline--until you apply it to their child and then they sue you. Parents complain about taxes going to education--while teachers have to buy their own supplies (this particularly frosts me). We are where decades of parents chose to be through their collective actions. The fact that they don't like the consequences of their actions is simply typical of modern society.

ErikVandeWater 5y ago
Parents aren't allowed school choice in most situations. This is on legislators banning students from getting an education outside their district, and banning or significantly hampering private education.
- bsder 5y ago
  Private schools and academies exist right now. The rich have no problem exiting the public school system no matter where they are. So, why is it that all parents aren't taking advantage of this? Oh, right, they can't pay for it. Parents magically think that something they already are unwilling to pay for will magically get cheaper the moment you bring the "free market" into the discussion. And, to be fair, that will be true for some students. If your child is abnormally big or abnormally smart, charter schools will accommodate them. If, however, your child has any behavioral issues--don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. ADHD accommodation--bye, bye. Threaten to commit suicide or cutting behaviors--you're gone. Depressed and failing because your parents are divorcing--see ya. Got into a catfight over a boyfriend--yeah, that's on social media--you're out of here. If your child isn't perfect, they will get punted. And generally those parents screaming the loudest, funnily enough, have the children who cause the most issues. Everybody assumes their child won't be the one on the short end of the stick. Everybody will be in for a rude awakening.
  - nradov 5y ago
    You seem to have confused charter schools with public schools. In most districts, public charter schools are open to all students regardless of size or intelligence.
  - ErikVandeWater 5y ago
    Parents are already paying a lot for improved education by moving to districts with decent public schools. They have to pay inflated housing prices because lots of parents want to move there to get their kids a decent education, and then they have to pay property taxes that go toward funding schools there. Lots of parents would be happy to stay where they are and pay the cost of private education if it were available. > magically get cheaper the moment you bring the "free market" into the discussion. Capitalism isn't magic. It's incentives. Right now if a school is doing poorly there is almost zero incentive to change, because parents aren't legally allowed to send there kids to a different school out-of-district.
hrunt 5y ago
> Parents wanted accountability--so we have standardization of outcomes. Parents say they want autonomy and discipline--until you apply it to their child and then they sue you. Parents complain about taxes going to education--while teachers have to buy their own supplies (this particularly frosts me). In the U.S, parents of public school students did not choose this. The broader electorate chose this, but many who drive the discourse around education are not parents. They are media personalities, politicians, and people without children in the public school system. That's not to say that parents do not have any responsibility for the current situation, but the choices of the broader electorate are generally not the choices of parents.
bob1029 5y ago
You make it sound like parents just asked for this exact system that is before us today. I don't think that is a fair way to present any of this. At what point did any parent in the state of Texas get to vote on a direct "should we standardize our outcomes y/n" measure? In reality, stuff like this is death by a thousands cuts brought to you by the lobbyists at Pearson (et. al.) over very long timeframes. Lots of money to be made selling rehashed garbage worksheet volumes every school year. No one is interested in teachers who have a proven curriculum that doesn't require spending millions on new materials every year.
megameter 5y ago
What every well-meaning parent will say, when pressed, is that they want their child to "be successful". But that goal brings us right back to the gauntlet of testing and ranking; to be successful in the systems of industrial society means being relatively better at what is tested, not your overall development. Everyone who doesn't fall in line manages to survive only by finding a "cheat code": a personal portfolio that has no competition, drive to start a business, pulling off a successful crime, marriage into wealth. That is, the only way to really make the parents happy is to never promise a clear path to success, for once you do they will rush to gatekeep it for their child, disregarding the child's motives or perspective. It's the "extrinsic reward negates intrinsic reward" hypothesis at the greatest scale.

by bsder 5y ago

ErikVandeWater 5y ago

Parents aren't allowed school choice in most situations. This is on legislators banning students from getting an education outside their district, and banning or significantly hampering private education.

bsder 5y ago
Private schools and academies exist right now. The rich have no problem exiting the public school system no matter where they are. So, why is it that all parents aren't taking advantage of this? Oh, right, they can't pay for it. Parents magically think that something they already are unwilling to pay for will magically get cheaper the moment you bring the "free market" into the discussion. And, to be fair, that will be true for some students. If your child is abnormally big or abnormally smart, charter schools will accommodate them. If, however, your child has any behavioral issues--don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. ADHD accommodation--bye, bye. Threaten to commit suicide or cutting behaviors--you're gone. Depressed and failing because your parents are divorcing--see ya. Got into a catfight over a boyfriend--yeah, that's on social media--you're out of here. If your child isn't perfect, they will get punted. And generally those parents screaming the loudest, funnily enough, have the children who cause the most issues. Everybody assumes their child won't be the one on the short end of the stick. Everybody will be in for a rude awakening.
- nradov 5y ago
  You seem to have confused charter schools with public schools. In most districts, public charter schools are open to all students regardless of size or intelligence.
- ErikVandeWater 5y ago
  Parents are already paying a lot for improved education by moving to districts with decent public schools. They have to pay inflated housing prices because lots of parents want to move there to get their kids a decent education, and then they have to pay property taxes that go toward funding schools there. Lots of parents would be happy to stay where they are and pay the cost of private education if it were available. > magically get cheaper the moment you bring the "free market" into the discussion. Capitalism isn't magic. It's incentives. Right now if a school is doing poorly there is almost zero incentive to change, because parents aren't legally allowed to send there kids to a different school out-of-district.

hrunt 5y ago

> Parents wanted accountability--so we have standardization of outcomes. Parents say they want autonomy and discipline--until you apply it to their child and then they sue you. Parents complain about taxes going to education--while teachers have to buy their own supplies (this particularly frosts me). In the U.S, parents of public school students did not choose this. The broader electorate chose this, but many who drive the discourse around education are not parents. They are media personalities, politicians, and people without children in the public school system. That's not to say that parents do not have any responsibility for the current situation, but the choices of the broader electorate are generally not the choices of parents.

bob1029 5y ago

You make it sound like parents just asked for this exact system that is before us today. I don't think that is a fair way to present any of this. At what point did any parent in the state of Texas get to vote on a direct "should we standardize our outcomes y/n" measure? In reality, stuff like this is death by a thousands cuts brought to you by the lobbyists at Pearson (et. al.) over very long timeframes. Lots of money to be made selling rehashed garbage worksheet volumes every school year. No one is interested in teachers who have a proven curriculum that doesn't require spending millions on new materials every year.

megameter 5y ago

What every well-meaning parent will say, when pressed, is that they want their child to "be successful". But that goal brings us right back to the gauntlet of testing and ranking; to be successful in the systems of industrial society means being relatively better at what is tested, not your overall development. Everyone who doesn't fall in line manages to survive only by finding a "cheat code": a personal portfolio that has no competition, drive to start a business, pulling off a successful crime, marriage into wealth. That is, the only way to really make the parents happy is to never promise a clear path to success, for once you do they will rush to gatekeep it for their child, disregarding the child's motives or perspective. It's the "extrinsic reward negates intrinsic reward" hypothesis at the greatest scale.