6 ms·

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20931307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20931307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8836324 https://new

by shash 5y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20931307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20931307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8836324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8836324 Interesting that it hasn't been commented upon much, and the project seems to not have had any updates since 2018...

ofou 5y ago
I agree! Just the fact that it's capable of translating to VHDL or Verilog makes it very useful. I'm surprised the industry doesn't care too much still.
- Rinced 5y ago
  I can tell you, as someone that had some experience in the industry with this, that the two problems are : - Teach people new paradigms - unfortunately, not all FPGA/Asic devs are fond of OOP nor have python on their abilities - Get further down the rabbit hole of framework debugging. To add a new layer on top of the horrible beasts that Xilinx Vivado/ISE or Intel Quartus are, one must ensure that the work is really going to be faster and more reliable. In the end, on the most constrained workflows, one would have to verify first the python/HDL code using MyHDL, then verify the generated VHDL using the industry tools, then go through the synthesis and place and route processes, add some verification layers there then test the result. Convincing a team to accept such a framework takes time and organization.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  The industry still heavily uses TCL. TCL!
  - itsrainingagain 5y ago
    Thanks that made me smile :) I actually really like Tcl, I like the simplicity of its command argument nature. The thread "Why is Tcl syntax so weird" was posted a couple of weeks back, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29143346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29143346. The first comment on the page includes "Tcl is still a wonderful language and I often lament how it’s mostly died out". Happily, for me at least, it's still going strong in HDL land :)
    - IshKebab 5y ago
      TCL is a terrible error-prone language. The fact that language rules are quite short (I think, there doesn't even seem to be a specification so who really knows) doesn't mean the language is good. Brainfuck is stupidly simple but good luck writing reliable code with that! I should make a TCL quoting quiz to prove how insane it is.
      - itsrainingagain 5y ago
        The rules are here https://www.tcl-lang.org/man/tcl/TclCmd/Tcl.htm https://www.tcl-lang.org/man/tcl/TclCmd/Tcl.htm I guess Tcl is just one of things that divides opinion.
        IshKebab 5y ago
        Ah thanks for that. I dunno, I suspect most TCL users are those that are forced to use it (because of EDA tools probably). Kind of the same reason Bash and CMake are popular, even though they share similar levels of insanity to TCL. The one thing I'll give it is that the "function bodies are just eval'd strings, quoted using braces" is a kind of neat trick for implementing functions. Like if you want to make a language that supports functions with the minimum amount of code possible, that's a fun idea. Not a good idea, but a fun one. The correct response is "ha that's a neat trick. Now please delete it and do it properly."

by shash 5y ago

ofou 5y ago

I agree! Just the fact that it's capable of translating to VHDL or Verilog makes it very useful. I'm surprised the industry doesn't care too much still.

Rinced 5y ago
I can tell you, as someone that had some experience in the industry with this, that the two problems are : - Teach people new paradigms - unfortunately, not all FPGA/Asic devs are fond of OOP nor have python on their abilities - Get further down the rabbit hole of framework debugging. To add a new layer on top of the horrible beasts that Xilinx Vivado/ISE or Intel Quartus are, one must ensure that the work is really going to be faster and more reliable. In the end, on the most constrained workflows, one would have to verify first the python/HDL code using MyHDL, then verify the generated VHDL using the industry tools, then go through the synthesis and place and route processes, add some verification layers there then test the result. Convincing a team to accept such a framework takes time and organization.
IshKebab 5y ago
The industry still heavily uses TCL. TCL!
- itsrainingagain 5y ago
  Thanks that made me smile :) I actually really like Tcl, I like the simplicity of its command argument nature. The thread "Why is Tcl syntax so weird" was posted a couple of weeks back, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29143346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29143346. The first comment on the page includes "Tcl is still a wonderful language and I often lament how it’s mostly died out". Happily, for me at least, it's still going strong in HDL land :)
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    TCL is a terrible error-prone language. The fact that language rules are quite short (I think, there doesn't even seem to be a specification so who really knows) doesn't mean the language is good. Brainfuck is stupidly simple but good luck writing reliable code with that! I should make a TCL quoting quiz to prove how insane it is.
    - itsrainingagain 5y ago
      The rules are here https://www.tcl-lang.org/man/tcl/TclCmd/Tcl.htm https://www.tcl-lang.org/man/tcl/TclCmd/Tcl.htm I guess Tcl is just one of things that divides opinion.
      - IshKebab 5y ago
        Ah thanks for that. I dunno, I suspect most TCL users are those that are forced to use it (because of EDA tools probably). Kind of the same reason Bash and CMake are popular, even though they share similar levels of insanity to TCL. The one thing I'll give it is that the "function bodies are just eval'd strings, quoted using braces" is a kind of neat trick for implementing functions. Like if you want to make a language that supports functions with the minimum amount of code possible, that's a fun idea. Not a good idea, but a fun one. The correct response is "ha that's a neat trick. Now please delete it and do it properly."