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Weren't "experts" calling for events to continue and that border closures would be racist and that people should not wear masks around that time? Maybe he was

Weren't "experts" calling for events to continue and that border closures would be racist and that people should not wear masks around that time? Maybe he was just listening to the experts.

frenchyatwork 5y ago
Yes, but none of those "experts" were calling it "a normal seasonal virus", they just didn't believe such measures were necessary. SARS-COV-1 didn't require widespread border closures or masking, and it very much wasn't "a normal seasonal virus".
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Yep so the rhetoric about it could easily have lead someone to think it wasn't much more to worry about than the seasonal flu.
  - tempestn 5y ago
    That's fair, but when people have opinions based on weak evidence, they should hold those opinions weakly, rather than reinforcing them to others.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      Are you criticizing the experts here? Careful that's verboten.
      - tempestn 5y ago
        I'm not, no. As more evidence is accumulated to support a hypothesis, it is rational to strengthen one's belief in it. All beliefs should start out weakly held, until sufficient evidence is gathered to either reinforce or change them. And of course even strongly held beliefs should be re-examined if sufficient evidence piles up to the contrary.
        throwawaylinux 5y ago
        So the incorrect opinions based on weak evidence that the experts had over the past years of covid should not have been "reinforced to others"? That sounds to me like a criticism of the experts.
        tempestn 5y ago
        No, the experts were disseminating the best available evidence at that time. I will criticize some steps by policy makers, like stating initially that masks were ineffective when in reality they were trying to discourage mask shortages to keep them for essential workers. I think in cases like that it's better to be honest with the public. But I don't have any criticism for scientists who accurately portray the best available evidence at a given time. My criticism was for the the hypothetical that the OP may have rationally stated that the virus was nothing more serious than a seasonal flu, based on experts stating that borders should not be closed. The statement that borders should not be closed was based on the most relevant research at the time; it turned out to be incorrect and was later reversed. But as a lay person, making the jump from that statement to the opinion that the virus is no big deal, and then echoing that opinion to others as fact, is not rational. One might have taken it as weak evidence in that direction, but no more than that.
        throwawaylinux 5y ago
        If "experts" were saying not to wear masks, insisting that border restrictions were racist and xenophobic, telling people to go out and gather in large groups in public, then OP said absolutely nothing wrong by claiming it was no more serious than the seasonal flu. Now we know that some "experts" were just totally wrong and had no idea what they were talking about, and others were in fact spreading misinformation abouta pandemic for political gain. But that is not OP's fault. You can't condemn him and absolve the actual people who reinforced that incorrect information to him in the first place. Ludicrous.
        tempestn 5y ago
tcbawo 5y ago
I've heard multiple references to experts/politicians/media "calling border closures racist" in early 2020, but only from conservative media claiming that liberals were espousing this viewpoint. Can someone provide sources or evidence for this?
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  First hit in the first page of a simple google search. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/xenophobe-chief-democrats-blast-trump-s-plan-suspend-immigration-u-n1188551 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/xenophobe-chief-de... Weird you have no recollection of it. It was pretty loud in the media for a while there.
  - tcbawo 5y ago
    This article comes from April 21, 2020, not Feb 2020 as GP mentioned. Apparently it was a Democrat response to a tweet announcing a border closure after the US had already seen 42000 deaths (fta). This looks like Democrats criticizing a policy of shutting the barn door after the animals had already left the barn.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      No it doesn't it looks like recklessly spreading disinformation during a crisis purely for personal political gain. The US has had strict border restrictions on foreign citizens through most of 2021 too. So unless you are going to call the Biden administration racist and xenophobic as well, then this reasoning doesn't work. But even if you did, then what you're saying about barn doors still contradicts what most experts have said in terms of reducing the movement of people to slow the spread.
- ardit33 5y ago
  Didn't Nancy Pelosi go to hug people in China town in late Feb 2020? Nancy Pelosi Visits San Francisco's Chinatown Amid Coronavirus Concerns https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/nancy-pelosi-visits-san-franciscos-chinatown/2240247/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/nancy-pelosi-visits-sa... "Fear of the Virus is Racially Motivated." Around the time the Trump administration announced the travel restriction, Biden said that Trump had a “record of hysteria, xenophobia, and fear-mongering.” In late January, the Trump administration implemented a travel restriction from China, where the coronavirus originated. Some on the left described the move as a racist or xenophobic ploy aimed at punishing a country that Trump has clashed with over trade. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/498350-biden-trumps-coronavirus-response-has-been-nakedly-xenophobic https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/498350-biden-trumps-co...
dekhn 5y ago
Prominent scientists signed their names to articles saying that implying the virus was released from a lab (intentionally or otherwise) was racist and factually wrong. Those scientists, by and large, have walked back their statements and admit that the hypothesis that this was a lab leak that occurred in Wuhan is not impossible and that stating it is not necessarily racist. Also, those folks aren't considered "experts" any more (everybody else lowered their priors about those expert's beliefs).

Weren't "experts" calling for events to continue and that border closures would be racist and that people should not wear masks around that time? Maybe he was just listening to the experts.

frenchyatwork 5y ago

Yes, but none of those "experts" were calling it "a normal seasonal virus", they just didn't believe such measures were necessary. SARS-COV-1 didn't require widespread border closures or masking, and it very much wasn't "a normal seasonal virus".

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Yep so the rhetoric about it could easily have lead someone to think it wasn't much more to worry about than the seasonal flu.
- tempestn 5y ago
  That's fair, but when people have opinions based on weak evidence, they should hold those opinions weakly, rather than reinforcing them to others.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Are you criticizing the experts here? Careful that's verboten.
    - tempestn 5y ago
      I'm not, no. As more evidence is accumulated to support a hypothesis, it is rational to strengthen one's belief in it. All beliefs should start out weakly held, until sufficient evidence is gathered to either reinforce or change them. And of course even strongly held beliefs should be re-examined if sufficient evidence piles up to the contrary.
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        So the incorrect opinions based on weak evidence that the experts had over the past years of covid should not have been "reinforced to others"? That sounds to me like a criticism of the experts.
        tempestn 5y ago
        No, the experts were disseminating the best available evidence at that time. I will criticize some steps by policy makers, like stating initially that masks were ineffective when in reality they were trying to discourage mask shortages to keep them for essential workers. I think in cases like that it's better to be honest with the public. But I don't have any criticism for scientists who accurately portray the best available evidence at a given time. My criticism was for the the hypothetical that the OP may have rationally stated that the virus was nothing more serious than a seasonal flu, based on experts stating that borders should not be closed. The statement that borders should not be closed was based on the most relevant research at the time; it turned out to be incorrect and was later reversed. But as a lay person, making the jump from that statement to the opinion that the virus is no big deal, and then echoing that opinion to others as fact, is not rational. One might have taken it as weak evidence in that direction, but no more than that.
        throwawaylinux 5y ago
        If "experts" were saying not to wear masks, insisting that border restrictions were racist and xenophobic, telling people to go out and gather in large groups in public, then OP said absolutely nothing wrong by claiming it was no more serious than the seasonal flu. Now we know that some "experts" were just totally wrong and had no idea what they were talking about, and others were in fact spreading misinformation abouta pandemic for political gain. But that is not OP's fault. You can't condemn him and absolve the actual people who reinforced that incorrect information to him in the first place. Ludicrous.
        tempestn 5y ago

tcbawo 5y ago

I've heard multiple references to experts/politicians/media "calling border closures racist" in early 2020, but only from conservative media claiming that liberals were espousing this viewpoint. Can someone provide sources or evidence for this?

throwawaylinux 5y ago
First hit in the first page of a simple google search. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/xenophobe-chief-democrats-blast-trump-s-plan-suspend-immigration-u-n1188551 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/xenophobe-chief-de... Weird you have no recollection of it. It was pretty loud in the media for a while there.
- tcbawo 5y ago
  This article comes from April 21, 2020, not Feb 2020 as GP mentioned. Apparently it was a Democrat response to a tweet announcing a border closure after the US had already seen 42000 deaths (fta). This looks like Democrats criticizing a policy of shutting the barn door after the animals had already left the barn.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    No it doesn't it looks like recklessly spreading disinformation during a crisis purely for personal political gain. The US has had strict border restrictions on foreign citizens through most of 2021 too. So unless you are going to call the Biden administration racist and xenophobic as well, then this reasoning doesn't work. But even if you did, then what you're saying about barn doors still contradicts what most experts have said in terms of reducing the movement of people to slow the spread.
ardit33 5y ago
Didn't Nancy Pelosi go to hug people in China town in late Feb 2020? Nancy Pelosi Visits San Francisco's Chinatown Amid Coronavirus Concerns https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/nancy-pelosi-visits-san-franciscos-chinatown/2240247/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/nancy-pelosi-visits-sa... "Fear of the Virus is Racially Motivated." Around the time the Trump administration announced the travel restriction, Biden said that Trump had a “record of hysteria, xenophobia, and fear-mongering.” In late January, the Trump administration implemented a travel restriction from China, where the coronavirus originated. Some on the left described the move as a racist or xenophobic ploy aimed at punishing a country that Trump has clashed with over trade. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/498350-biden-trumps-coronavirus-response-has-been-nakedly-xenophobic https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/498350-biden-trumps-co...

dekhn 5y ago

Prominent scientists signed their names to articles saying that implying the virus was released from a lab (intentionally or otherwise) was racist and factually wrong. Those scientists, by and large, have walked back their statements and admit that the hypothesis that this was a lab leak that occurred in Wuhan is not impossible and that stating it is not necessarily racist. Also, those folks aren't considered "experts" any more (everybody else lowered their priors about those expert's beliefs).