5 ms·

Does the flu virus mutate every year?

by tamaharbor 5y ago

LudwigNagasena 5y ago
Yeah, that’s why people take a shot every year.
- Eelongate 5y ago
  Also why many people don't take it at all. Not worth the constant hassle for something that doesn't bother me in the first place. Flu shot efficacy is usually in the gutter anyway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectivenes...).
  - discordance 5y ago
    If taking a quick and harmless shot every year gives me up to a ~40% chance of avoiding disease then I’m good with that. Definitely a better outcome than not getting a flu shot.
    - dekhn 5y ago
      when I get the flu shot I typically spend a week with a non-functioning arm and feeling like I'm very sick. However, I still get flu vaccination because it seems likely that this maximizes the overall health of humanity, and I'm more interested in the health of humanity than my own, in the long term.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
        Good that you get the shot, but I'll just note that the symptom you describe is far worse than most people who get the flu shot. Most years I get it I have no symptoms at all besides slight arm soreness. Maybe one in five years I have a mild fever for a day.
  - gerdesj 5y ago
    It doesn't bother you yet. Wait until you are say sixty or seventy years old. I am of course making a few assumptions here 8) Flu rarely kills young 'uns in reasonable to good shape with no other indicators or whatever doctors call it. I mean risks associated with a particular individual. The point of vaccines is not perfection but more like a war of attrition. A vaccine has several potential purposes, some of them are these: * Reduce the possibility of infection * Reduce the effects of an infection * Reduce the infectiousness of an individual to other people The first two effects affect you personally and the third one affects society as a whole. The third one is the thing behind the "Don't kill grandma" meme. Your comment implies to me that you may not have considered it. If you have and are happy with that, then that is your prerogative. Each of those items above have various probabilities associated with them and rather a lot of external factors and so on. A vaccine's stated effectiveness in each area will obviously be some sort of average across a population. That's the thing: Vaccines inoculate societies as a whole and not just individuals when you look at statistics. The phrase "anecdotes are not data" is particularly true here. Even a "lol sad" 40% effective (whatever that means) vaccine will slow the spread of the thing across a population and reduce the possibility of individual deaths or other non optimal outcomes. When you start to look at the population as a whole you see huge numbers of people living instead of dying. With luck, one of those survivors might be you or me one day. This is the only time I will advocate a sort of communist approach to things. By "risking" inoculation, you reduce the possibility that someone else might catch the disease. You also get some additional abilities to fight off the bloody thing too - nice!
    - Eelongate 5y ago
      The old people in my family usually get the shot. When I'm old, I might start to get it as well. Until then, I don't bother.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    The flu didn't bother me 'til it knocked me on my ass for two weeks and I had brain fog for several months afterwards. The cost of a flu shot is a few bucks, a few minutes to get the jab, a sore muscle and mild symptoms for a day. That for 20-50% efficacy chance to avoid that 2-week monster flu? I'm in.
    - jghn 5y ago
      One big issue is that colloquially "the flu" is used to describe bad colds and other illnesses. Almost no one who has "the flu" has influenza. Thus people underestimate how bad influenza actually is
      - corin_ 5y ago
        Actually I believe that in itself is a misunderstanding. Flu may be more likely than a cold statistically to hit someone badly, but it's quite possible to get the flu mildly, and it's quite possible to get really, really bad cold. The same way Covid being statistically more dangerous than the flu doesn't mean that every person getting infected by Covid has a worse time than every person getting the flu.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
    > constant hassle > something that doesn't bother me Yeah you've never been unlucky enough to get a bad flu. I'll absolutely choose the "constant hassle" of getting a flu shot (i.e. a 5 minute pit stop at the drug store once per year). The flu sucks.
- 2-718-281-828 5y ago
  That's why a minority of people take a shot every year.
lbotos 5y ago
I'm not sure if you are trolling, or sincere, but yes: https://www.uabmedicine.org/-/flu-strains-explained-and-how-the-vaccine-works https://www.uabmedicine.org/-/flu-strains-explained-and-how-... This is why Flu shots are seasonal
- sundvor 5y ago
  I'd say that's a good rhetorical question rather than a troll. It's designed to make a statement, rather than elicit information. (Ref Oxford Languages).
- derbOac 5y ago
  I'm wondering why we don't start producing mRNA vaccines targeting this other variant now. Seems like there could be some safety and efficacy protocol put in place to target emerging variants so we don't have to start from scratch in the approval process, requiring 30k-40k adults alone every year.
  - M2Ys4U 5y ago
    >I'm wondering why we don't start producing mRNA vaccines targeting this other variant now. People are developing mRNA vaccines for 'flu now. Moderna, Pfizer and Sanofi all have mRNA 'flu vaccines in clinical trials, and there are a bunch more in the pre-clinical stages. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41573-021-00176-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41573-021-00176-7
    - dvsfish 5y ago
      why the apostrophes?
      - pmg102 5y ago
        Flu is short for influenza so perhaps the apostrophes are intended to indicate the existence of missing characters?
polytely 5y ago
Yes that's why the effectiveness of the flu-shot differs between years
TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
Yes. The CDC has this to say about flu virus mutation: How Flu Viruses Can Change: “Drift” and “Shift” Influenza (flu) viruses are constantly changing. They can change in two different ways. Antigenic Drift One way flu viruses change is called “antigenic drift.” Drift consists of small changes (or mutations) in the genes of influenza viruses that can lead to changes in the surface proteins of the virus, HA (hemagglutinin) and NA (neuraminidase). The HA and NA surface proteins of influenza viruses are “antigens,” which means they are recognized by the immune system and are capable of triggering an immune response, including production of antibodies that can block infection. The changes associated with antigenic drift happen continually over time as flu viruses replicate (i.e., infect a host and make copies of themselves). Most flu shots are designed to target the HA surface proteins/antigens of flu viruses. The nasal spray flu vaccine (LAIV) may target both the HA and NA of a flu virus. The small changes that occur from antigenic drift usually produce viruses that are closely related to one another, which can be illustrated by their location close together on a phylogenetic tree. Flu viruses that are closely related to each other usually have similar antigenic properties. This means that antibodies your immune system creates against one flu virus will likely recognize and respond to antigenically similar flu viruses (this is called “cross-protection”). However, the small changes associated with antigenic drift can accumulate over time and result in viruses that are antigenically different (further away on the phylogenetic tree). It also is possible for a single change in a particularly important location on the HA to result in antigenic drift. When antigenic drift occurs, the body’s immune system may not recognize and prevent sickness caused by the newer flu viruses. As a result, a person becomes susceptible to flu infection again, as antigenic drift has changed the virus’ antigenic properties enough that a person’s existing antibodies won’t recognize and neutralize the newer flu viruses. Antigenic drift is an important reason why people can get flu more than one time. Drift is also a primary reason why the composition of flu vaccines for use in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres is reviewed annually and updated as needed to keep up with evolving flu viruses. Antigenic Shift Another type of change is called “antigenic shift.” Shift is an abrupt, major change in a flu A virus, resulting in new HA and/or new HA and NA proteins in flu viruses that infect humans. Antigenic shift can result in a new flu A subtype. Shift can happen if a flu virus from an animal population gains the ability to infect humans. Such animal-origin viruses can contain HA or HA/NA combinations that are different enough from human viruses that most people do not have immunity to the new (e.g., novel) virus. Such a “shift” occurred in the spring of 2009, when an H1N1 virus with genes from North American Swine, Eurasian Swine, humans and birds emerged to infect people and quickly spread, causing a pandemic. When shift happens, most people have little or no immunity against the new virus. While flu viruses change all the time due to antigenic drift, antigenic shift happens less frequently. Flu pandemics occur rarely; there have been four flu pandemics in the past 100 years. For more information, see pandemic flu. Type A viruses undergo both antigenic drift and shift and are the only flu viruses known to cause pandemics, while flu type B viruses change only by the more gradual process of antigenic drift. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm

Does the flu virus mutate every year?

LudwigNagasena 5y ago

Yeah, that’s why people take a shot every year.

Eelongate 5y ago
Also why many people don't take it at all. Not worth the constant hassle for something that doesn't bother me in the first place. Flu shot efficacy is usually in the gutter anyway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectivenes...).
- discordance 5y ago
  If taking a quick and harmless shot every year gives me up to a ~40% chance of avoiding disease then I’m good with that. Definitely a better outcome than not getting a flu shot.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    when I get the flu shot I typically spend a week with a non-functioning arm and feeling like I'm very sick. However, I still get flu vaccination because it seems likely that this maximizes the overall health of humanity, and I'm more interested in the health of humanity than my own, in the long term.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      Good that you get the shot, but I'll just note that the symptom you describe is far worse than most people who get the flu shot. Most years I get it I have no symptoms at all besides slight arm soreness. Maybe one in five years I have a mild fever for a day.
- gerdesj 5y ago
  It doesn't bother you yet. Wait until you are say sixty or seventy years old. I am of course making a few assumptions here 8) Flu rarely kills young 'uns in reasonable to good shape with no other indicators or whatever doctors call it. I mean risks associated with a particular individual. The point of vaccines is not perfection but more like a war of attrition. A vaccine has several potential purposes, some of them are these: * Reduce the possibility of infection * Reduce the effects of an infection * Reduce the infectiousness of an individual to other people The first two effects affect you personally and the third one affects society as a whole. The third one is the thing behind the "Don't kill grandma" meme. Your comment implies to me that you may not have considered it. If you have and are happy with that, then that is your prerogative. Each of those items above have various probabilities associated with them and rather a lot of external factors and so on. A vaccine's stated effectiveness in each area will obviously be some sort of average across a population. That's the thing: Vaccines inoculate societies as a whole and not just individuals when you look at statistics. The phrase "anecdotes are not data" is particularly true here. Even a "lol sad" 40% effective (whatever that means) vaccine will slow the spread of the thing across a population and reduce the possibility of individual deaths or other non optimal outcomes. When you start to look at the population as a whole you see huge numbers of people living instead of dying. With luck, one of those survivors might be you or me one day. This is the only time I will advocate a sort of communist approach to things. By "risking" inoculation, you reduce the possibility that someone else might catch the disease. You also get some additional abilities to fight off the bloody thing too - nice!
  - Eelongate 5y ago
    The old people in my family usually get the shot. When I'm old, I might start to get it as well. Until then, I don't bother.
- klyrs 5y ago
  The flu didn't bother me 'til it knocked me on my ass for two weeks and I had brain fog for several months afterwards. The cost of a flu shot is a few bucks, a few minutes to get the jab, a sore muscle and mild symptoms for a day. That for 20-50% efficacy chance to avoid that 2-week monster flu? I'm in.
  - jghn 5y ago
    One big issue is that colloquially "the flu" is used to describe bad colds and other illnesses. Almost no one who has "the flu" has influenza. Thus people underestimate how bad influenza actually is
    - corin_ 5y ago
      Actually I believe that in itself is a misunderstanding. Flu may be more likely than a cold statistically to hit someone badly, but it's quite possible to get the flu mildly, and it's quite possible to get really, really bad cold. The same way Covid being statistically more dangerous than the flu doesn't mean that every person getting infected by Covid has a worse time than every person getting the flu.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  > constant hassle > something that doesn't bother me Yeah you've never been unlucky enough to get a bad flu. I'll absolutely choose the "constant hassle" of getting a flu shot (i.e. a 5 minute pit stop at the drug store once per year). The flu sucks.
2-718-281-828 5y ago
That's why a minority of people take a shot every year.

lbotos 5y ago

I'm not sure if you are trolling, or sincere, but yes: https://www.uabmedicine.org/-/flu-strains-explained-and-how-the-vaccine-works https://www.uabmedicine.org/-/flu-strains-explained-and-how-... This is why Flu shots are seasonal

sundvor 5y ago
I'd say that's a good rhetorical question rather than a troll. It's designed to make a statement, rather than elicit information. (Ref Oxford Languages).
derbOac 5y ago
I'm wondering why we don't start producing mRNA vaccines targeting this other variant now. Seems like there could be some safety and efficacy protocol put in place to target emerging variants so we don't have to start from scratch in the approval process, requiring 30k-40k adults alone every year.
- M2Ys4U 5y ago
  >I'm wondering why we don't start producing mRNA vaccines targeting this other variant now. People are developing mRNA vaccines for 'flu now. Moderna, Pfizer and Sanofi all have mRNA 'flu vaccines in clinical trials, and there are a bunch more in the pre-clinical stages. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41573-021-00176-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41573-021-00176-7
  - dvsfish 5y ago
    why the apostrophes?
    - pmg102 5y ago
      Flu is short for influenza so perhaps the apostrophes are intended to indicate the existence of missing characters?

polytely 5y ago

Yes that's why the effectiveness of the flu-shot differs between years

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago

Yes. The CDC has this to say about flu virus mutation: How Flu Viruses Can Change: “Drift” and “Shift” Influenza (flu) viruses are constantly changing. They can change in two different ways. Antigenic Drift One way flu viruses change is called “antigenic drift.” Drift consists of small changes (or mutations) in the genes of influenza viruses that can lead to changes in the surface proteins of the virus, HA (hemagglutinin) and NA (neuraminidase). The HA and NA surface proteins of influenza viruses are “antigens,” which means they are recognized by the immune system and are capable of triggering an immune response, including production of antibodies that can block infection. The changes associated with antigenic drift happen continually over time as flu viruses replicate (i.e., infect a host and make copies of themselves). Most flu shots are designed to target the HA surface proteins/antigens of flu viruses. The nasal spray flu vaccine (LAIV) may target both the HA and NA of a flu virus. The small changes that occur from antigenic drift usually produce viruses that are closely related to one another, which can be illustrated by their location close together on a phylogenetic tree. Flu viruses that are closely related to each other usually have similar antigenic properties. This means that antibodies your immune system creates against one flu virus will likely recognize and respond to antigenically similar flu viruses (this is called “cross-protection”). However, the small changes associated with antigenic drift can accumulate over time and result in viruses that are antigenically different (further away on the phylogenetic tree). It also is possible for a single change in a particularly important location on the HA to result in antigenic drift. When antigenic drift occurs, the body’s immune system may not recognize and prevent sickness caused by the newer flu viruses. As a result, a person becomes susceptible to flu infection again, as antigenic drift has changed the virus’ antigenic properties enough that a person’s existing antibodies won’t recognize and neutralize the newer flu viruses. Antigenic drift is an important reason why people can get flu more than one time. Drift is also a primary reason why the composition of flu vaccines for use in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres is reviewed annually and updated as needed to keep up with evolving flu viruses. Antigenic Shift Another type of change is called “antigenic shift.” Shift is an abrupt, major change in a flu A virus, resulting in new HA and/or new HA and NA proteins in flu viruses that infect humans. Antigenic shift can result in a new flu A subtype. Shift can happen if a flu virus from an animal population gains the ability to infect humans. Such animal-origin viruses can contain HA or HA/NA combinations that are different enough from human viruses that most people do not have immunity to the new (e.g., novel) virus. Such a “shift” occurred in the spring of 2009, when an H1N1 virus with genes from North American Swine, Eurasian Swine, humans and birds emerged to infect people and quickly spread, causing a pandemic. When shift happens, most people have little or no immunity against the new virus. While flu viruses change all the time due to antigenic drift, antigenic shift happens less frequently. Flu pandemics occur rarely; there have been four flu pandemics in the past 100 years. For more information, see pandemic flu. Type A viruses undergo both antigenic drift and shift and are the only flu viruses known to cause pandemics, while flu type B viruses change only by the more gradual process of antigenic drift. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm