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I mean what I am about to ask honestly. Why do you think of vaccinations in this way? From my perspective they are bringing us closer to a normal society at min

I mean what I am about to ask honestly. Why do you think of vaccinations in this way? From my perspective they are bringing us closer to a normal society at minimal risk. Vaccine mandates have been part of American society (and I assume others) for many years. Why is this one so different for you?

ipaddr 5y ago
I don't recall any vaccine mandate that have been part of America society like this. Are you referring to a flu shot some get yearly?
- takeda 5y ago
  https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court Also you might not be aware of other mandates, because you received those vaccines as a kid.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    I'm aware of child vaccines and public school requirements. The Covid vaccine mandating adults and businesses is something we have never seen
    - takeda 5y ago
      The SCOTUS ruling they are talking about was about police giving mandates to random people on the street for not being vaccinated. I don't see how that's not more extreme.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  Medical professionals routinely work under influenza vaccine mandates. The antivaxxers among them have just always been afforded an escape hatch.
- 1986 5y ago
  You basically cannot attend a higher education institution in person without having gotten mmr, hep b, and meningitis vaccines, and those requirements have been in place for quite a while.
- kristjansson 5y ago
  The obvious analogy being childhood vaccine requirements for schools, sports college, etc.
- saila 5y ago
  Aren't many vaccines required to attend public schools, which is, in essence, a mandate? You either get your kids vaccinated, get an exemption, or choose alternative schooling. What's the fundamental difference? I've also been required to show proof of vaccinations for certain jobs.
  - sjwalter 5y ago
    Do you see much difference between a fairly porous policy surrounding well-understood, olden vaccines and k-12 education and requiring a novel vaccine in order to engage meaningfully in public life at all? So weird that folks seem to think these things are at all equivalent. In New Zealand you will not be able to work (remote or not) if you don't get the vaccine. Is that similar to the k-12 "mandate"?
    - drusepth 5y ago
      >In New Zealand you will not be able to work (remote or not) if you don't get the vaccine. >Is that similar to the k-12 "mandate"? Yes. In the US, you largely can't attend k-12 (remote or not) without proof of all your vaccinations either. Ironically, those required vaccines don't include COVID yet. Many jobs also require proof of non-covid vaccinations. If you aren't vaccinated for something, you put those around you at a higher risk for it -- even if they are vaccinated. COVID isn't a special case here.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        Covid is different because it forces all businesses over a certain size and it puts mandates for adults. This vaccine is a special case not status quo.
        drusepth 5y ago
        The vaccine is an effective method to return to the status quo, AKA not being in a global pandemic / public health crisis. Any time you have a contagious outbreak of anything (for example, outbreaks of any of the many other things we require the general public to vaccinate against) you see very similar measures taken to contain and eradicate it: isolating & controlling an area's ingress/egress, required quarantines, mandated vaccinations (when they're available) and/or widespread, repeated negative tests and a reduction in spread before returning to a "status quo". This vaccine (and other infectious control methods) are an existing, by-the-book response to an epidemic-turned-pandemic disturbing the status quo. The Supreme Court ruled [1] way back in 1905 that it was lawful to punish and "infringe upon personal freedoms" of those who refuse a vaccination during a public health crisis. This is nothing new. [1] https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/
- drusepth 5y ago
  In my area (Oregon), there are vaccine mandates for diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, varicella (chickenpox), measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis A/B, and hib (Haemophilus influenza B) that the vast majority of people have to get. In fact, I'd say they're more strict than the COVID vaccine "mandate" -- especially in a lot of states/areas not taking COVID seriously. The standard mandates were largely the same when I grew up in Missouri/Iowa and I imagine they're similar across most of the US as a whole. If you don't get them, you can't e.g. go to school. I also had to get additional vaccines (tetanus, pneumococca, etc) in order to land some jobs over the years. Requiring an additional vaccine doesn't really seem that different to all the others already mandated, IMO.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    School isn't really comparable to adult mandates forced on all business
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ro-_-b 5y ago
A mandate in this case is different because a) this vaccine is not highly effective at preventing the disease (especially after 6 months+) b) long term effects have not yet been studied c) fatality is still much lower than for diseases where vaccines are mandatory I'm vaccinated myself twice by I feel extremely uncomfortable to force other people to vaccinate. I don't think liberal democracies should go this path.
- takeda 5y ago
  > a) this vaccine is not highly effective at preventing the disease (especially after 6 months+) so is having covid, some people cought it 3 times already, what do you propose? BTW: in normal circumstances, we often have 3 doses of vaccines spread over months (for example Pentacel or Prevnar vaccines). We had first vaccine shots weeks apart, because it is a pandemic... > b) long term effects have not yet been studied So are long terms of covid, what do you think covid injects into your cell when it infects it? All side effects vaccine caused also happen with covid at much higher rate. Keep in mind that since beginning of 2020 only 15% of US population had covid (based on cases) while 70% of people got vaccinated. This means 1.5 out of 10 people you know had covid and 7 out of 10 people you know got the vaccine. Using the common argument: "you don't see people dying on the streets from the vaccine". > c) fatality is still much lower than for diseases where vaccines are mandatory The 2% is when hospitals are not overburdened. Also if you get to be one of the 98% you get 1 in 4 chance to get long lasting issues that could disable you. > I'm vaccinated myself twice by I feel extremely uncomfortable to force other people to vaccinate. I don't think liberal democracies should go this path. Do you have example where they actually force you to get a vaccine like George Washington forced his soldiers? In each case you have multiple options to not get vaccinated. Almost always there's an option to get a test and if not there other possibilities.
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
    >> you don't see people dying on the streets from the vaccine https://infiniteunknown.net/2021/11/22/ron-johnson-leads-expert-panel-on-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-and-injuries-video/ https://infiniteunknown.net/2021/11/22/ron-johnson-leads-exp... 'Statistically insignificant' until it affects you. >> Do you have example where they actually force you to get a vaccine like George Washington forced his soldiers? Is this a genuine question? Do you not know? Both government and employers have numerous mandates in many places now and thousands of 'essential workers' have been fired already.

ipaddr 5y ago

I don't recall any vaccine mandate that have been part of America society like this. Are you referring to a flu shot some get yearly?

takeda 5y ago
https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court Also you might not be aware of other mandates, because you received those vaccines as a kid.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  I'm aware of child vaccines and public school requirements. The Covid vaccine mandating adults and businesses is something we have never seen
  - takeda 5y ago
    The SCOTUS ruling they are talking about was about police giving mandates to random people on the street for not being vaccinated. I don't see how that's not more extreme.
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Medical professionals routinely work under influenza vaccine mandates. The antivaxxers among them have just always been afforded an escape hatch.
1986 5y ago
You basically cannot attend a higher education institution in person without having gotten mmr, hep b, and meningitis vaccines, and those requirements have been in place for quite a while.
kristjansson 5y ago
The obvious analogy being childhood vaccine requirements for schools, sports college, etc.
saila 5y ago
Aren't many vaccines required to attend public schools, which is, in essence, a mandate? You either get your kids vaccinated, get an exemption, or choose alternative schooling. What's the fundamental difference? I've also been required to show proof of vaccinations for certain jobs.
- sjwalter 5y ago
  Do you see much difference between a fairly porous policy surrounding well-understood, olden vaccines and k-12 education and requiring a novel vaccine in order to engage meaningfully in public life at all? So weird that folks seem to think these things are at all equivalent. In New Zealand you will not be able to work (remote or not) if you don't get the vaccine. Is that similar to the k-12 "mandate"?
  - drusepth 5y ago
    >In New Zealand you will not be able to work (remote or not) if you don't get the vaccine. >Is that similar to the k-12 "mandate"? Yes. In the US, you largely can't attend k-12 (remote or not) without proof of all your vaccinations either. Ironically, those required vaccines don't include COVID yet. Many jobs also require proof of non-covid vaccinations. If you aren't vaccinated for something, you put those around you at a higher risk for it -- even if they are vaccinated. COVID isn't a special case here.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Covid is different because it forces all businesses over a certain size and it puts mandates for adults. This vaccine is a special case not status quo.
      - drusepth 5y ago
        The vaccine is an effective method to return to the status quo, AKA not being in a global pandemic / public health crisis. Any time you have a contagious outbreak of anything (for example, outbreaks of any of the many other things we require the general public to vaccinate against) you see very similar measures taken to contain and eradicate it: isolating & controlling an area's ingress/egress, required quarantines, mandated vaccinations (when they're available) and/or widespread, repeated negative tests and a reduction in spread before returning to a "status quo". This vaccine (and other infectious control methods) are an existing, by-the-book response to an epidemic-turned-pandemic disturbing the status quo. The Supreme Court ruled [1] way back in 1905 that it was lawful to punish and "infringe upon personal freedoms" of those who refuse a vaccination during a public health crisis. This is nothing new. [1] https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/
drusepth 5y ago
In my area (Oregon), there are vaccine mandates for diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, varicella (chickenpox), measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis A/B, and hib (Haemophilus influenza B) that the vast majority of people have to get. In fact, I'd say they're more strict than the COVID vaccine "mandate" -- especially in a lot of states/areas not taking COVID seriously. The standard mandates were largely the same when I grew up in Missouri/Iowa and I imagine they're similar across most of the US as a whole. If you don't get them, you can't e.g. go to school. I also had to get additional vaccines (tetanus, pneumococca, etc) in order to land some jobs over the years. Requiring an additional vaccine doesn't really seem that different to all the others already mandated, IMO.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  School isn't really comparable to adult mandates forced on all business

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ro-_-b 5y ago

A mandate in this case is different because a) this vaccine is not highly effective at preventing the disease (especially after 6 months+) b) long term effects have not yet been studied c) fatality is still much lower than for diseases where vaccines are mandatory I'm vaccinated myself twice by I feel extremely uncomfortable to force other people to vaccinate. I don't think liberal democracies should go this path.

takeda 5y ago
> a) this vaccine is not highly effective at preventing the disease (especially after 6 months+) so is having covid, some people cought it 3 times already, what do you propose? BTW: in normal circumstances, we often have 3 doses of vaccines spread over months (for example Pentacel or Prevnar vaccines). We had first vaccine shots weeks apart, because it is a pandemic... > b) long term effects have not yet been studied So are long terms of covid, what do you think covid injects into your cell when it infects it? All side effects vaccine caused also happen with covid at much higher rate. Keep in mind that since beginning of 2020 only 15% of US population had covid (based on cases) while 70% of people got vaccinated. This means 1.5 out of 10 people you know had covid and 7 out of 10 people you know got the vaccine. Using the common argument: "you don't see people dying on the streets from the vaccine". > c) fatality is still much lower than for diseases where vaccines are mandatory The 2% is when hospitals are not overburdened. Also if you get to be one of the 98% you get 1 in 4 chance to get long lasting issues that could disable you. > I'm vaccinated myself twice by I feel extremely uncomfortable to force other people to vaccinate. I don't think liberal democracies should go this path. Do you have example where they actually force you to get a vaccine like George Washington forced his soldiers? In each case you have multiple options to not get vaccinated. Almost always there's an option to get a test and if not there other possibilities.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  >> you don't see people dying on the streets from the vaccine https://infiniteunknown.net/2021/11/22/ron-johnson-leads-expert-panel-on-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-and-injuries-video/ https://infiniteunknown.net/2021/11/22/ron-johnson-leads-exp... 'Statistically insignificant' until it affects you. >> Do you have example where they actually force you to get a vaccine like George Washington forced his soldiers? Is this a genuine question? Do you not know? Both government and employers have numerous mandates in many places now and thousands of 'essential workers' have been fired already.