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> I grab one of my mid-drives. But usually I grab one of my hub-drives. Why? A THROTTLE! Throttles are magic and give you the option of pedaling as little as ze

> I grab one of my mid-drives. But usually I grab one of my hub-drives. Why? A THROTTLE! Throttles are magic and give you the option of pedaling as little as zero. Not sure about there, but pedaling as little as zero is illegal in several countries. Besides, I own a mid-drive cargo bike, and had several hub-drives, and mid-drives are absolutely better: > Particularly for cargo bikes, a throttle is a major feature. You’ll appreciate it when you’re taking off from a standing stop with groceries or children on the back. with a mid-drive, taking off from a standing stop is smooth. if not putting energy at all is a concern, one can either make sure that reaches stopping points in a low gear, or just set the engine assist to the max. If one is so concerned about not putting effort, an e-scooter is a more fitting choice.

busymom0 5y ago
How does law enforcement check if you are pedalling or not?
- pletnes 5y ago
  On my bikes (we have 2), the electronics controlling the motor only allows the motor to run when pedaling with some force. I guess law enforcement can see if you’re pedaling, if they have one eye open. If accidents happen, they can test equipment to ser if it’s illegaly imported / not approved / tampered with / etc. As usual, «don’t get caught» works up until a point. If you want to go fast, just get a motorbike. Why bother tampering with a pedelec?
  - glogla 5y ago
    > If you want to go fast, just get a motorbike. Why bother tampering with a pedelec? Because in a lot of places you're vastly less likely to be killed by a car on a cycle path on bike than on a road on motorbike. I mean I'm not sure it's good, since this will just gradually make the cycle paths less safe as well, but at the moment it is what the math says.
    - karatinversion 5y ago
      If that’s the logic, why not simply drive the motorbike on the cycle path?
      - AnthonBerg 5y ago
        That is indeed what is happening which confirms the presence of this logic of incentives. It’s motorcycles which look like bicycles. On cycle paths. Killing people. This needs to be addressed with a societal mechanism.
    - Angostura 5y ago
      That's why I always drive my car on pavements/sidewalks. Its so much safer for me.
    - notacoward 5y ago
      > this will just gradually make the cycle paths less safe Not gradually. It's already well under way.
- mellavora 5y ago
  You do know that police officer evidence is typically treated as unquestionable by courts? So if the officer says you were not pedalling, then you have an uphill battle to prove you were.
- batushka3 5y ago
  For example in Berlin everything electric with throtle is baned
- gambiting 5y ago
  In practice - no one will. But if you get into an accident(especially if anyone is harmed) you can absolutely be sure that the police will check if your ebike was legal at the time or not. If they find you had a motor more powerful than allowed, or that it could ride without pedalling, you will find yourself in a situation where you caused an accident riding an illegaly modified vehicle - and will most likely be found at fault regardless of anything else. And that's not a good position to be in.
baq 5y ago
A throttle in a cargo bike helps a lot when going uphill, and especially so when you had to stop while going uphill. Haven’t tried the alternative, though.
- tapland 5y ago
  Non throttled ones often have a few different assist settings that work for hills. A throttled one with no pedaling is just a moped. Those aren't allowed in bike lanes in most places.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    Not allowed but endemic where I live. It’s really funny, my 3yo daughter started calling them “monsters” for some reason. “Daddy daddy there’s a monster behind us!”. I make a point of not correcting her.
pletnes 5y ago
Some bikes have a «walk assist» function to let you get a little help when parking, walking with the bike, etc. My Bosch mid-drive does that. I bike all winter (64 deg north) with a bunch of kids + cargo, works great.
cunidev 5y ago
Similarly, some models suggested have overpowered (or "illegal") engines, as subtly admitted. Going that fast on a bike is by no means safe, if anything because of tyres.
- entropicgravity 5y ago
  Pedal bikes will get up to speeds well over 20mph(30kph) going downhill and their tires are still safe.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    I mean......based on what? Like don't get me wrong, I used to do a lot of mountain cycling on a road bike, and going downhill I'd approach 60mph(100km/h) easily.....but I was never under any illusion that it's "safe" to do, or that the manufacturer even tested the tyres up to that speed. They just happened to work when we did it.
    - rich_sasha 5y ago
      Road bike tyres are clearly expected to hold at speeds like 50-60kph... that’s not even fast for a descent. And commuter bike tyres are usually substantially beefier.
    - entropicgravity 5y ago
      Lawyers.
    - cranekam 5y ago
      What would you expect to happen to the tyres at high speed? I assume at some speed they’ll fall apart or something but that surely must be at more than 100kph. The things are already holding in air at 100psi+ — why would rolling quickly be an issue? Of course, at 100kph you might have other issues, like stopping in time, but I wouldn’t expect my tyres to fall apart under me. If you have any further information on this topic I’d love to see it!
      - 5y ago
bambax 5y ago
Yeah idk why he seems to imply you can't have a throttle with a mid drive. Of course you can. But yes in many places if the bike has a throttle it ceases to be an ebike (a bike) and has to have insurance and papers, etc.
- drakonka 5y ago
  Yes; the only thing that makes my ebike a "Moped Class II" instead of an ebike is its throttle. I am able to legally use bike lanes, but also need to have traffic insurance to use it. It's been a life saver during the pandemic to avoid public transport, but it isn't my normal "daily rider" since it's just less convenient to lug out of storage on a regular basis than my Brompton.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
The only downside I've found with my mid-drive is it chews through chains quite quickly.
- Filligree 5y ago
  You... probably can't retrofit a belt, but I find they do live up to the advertisement. Zero maintenance needed, zero trouble so far. (After around two thousand kilometers.)
  - steve_adams_86 5y ago
    Nice, I wonder what that would take for mine. I doubt it's possible. I just had my change replaced at 2500km though and it was quite expensive. Given how much mileage the bike gets, I feel like something more durable would be worthwhile.
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      It's reasonably easy to replace the chain yourself if you want to control costs. https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-replacement-derailleur-bikes https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-replacement-...
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Yes, when I replace the it I will probably go for belt drive with a Rohloff hub.
dreamcompiler 5y ago
> Not sure about there, but pedaling as little as zero is illegal in several countries. It's not illegal in the US as long as total wattage is less than 750 and max speed is <=20mph.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  It actually depends 100% on the trail or road you’re riding on and how it’s licensed. You can have a pure electric motorcycle with throttle licenses for street use. No power or speed limits (obviously). But most bike paths have been designated “No motorized vehicles” from the time before e-bikes. There have been exceptions carved out in some places for pedal-assist bikes, but having a pure throttle would not comply with the pedal-assist requirement. The problem is that e-bike companies know that a lot of people really don’t want to pedal or be limited to 20mph or 750W, so a lot of the e-bikes you can buy today are easily hackable by design. It’s common for people to buy an e-bike compliant with these regulations and then immediately modify it to remove the limits and add a throttle. Now they have an electric motorcycle that looks like a compliant e-bike from the outside. And to be honest, they’re ruining e-biking for everyone. My local trails are filled with people flying around at motorcycle speeds while the rest of us are moving at pedal speeds. They’re tearing up the trails because they can put 1500W or more into spinning the rear wheel without feedback while the trails were designed for us manual bikers putting a few hundred watts at most into the rear wheel with direct feedback to feel any spin. Locally, there’s a backlash of denying any e-bike from common trails because they’ve morphed into a loophole to motorcycle around. It’s unfortunate because I really wanted pedal assist e-bikes to open the sport to older and less physically fit riders, but instead it’s closing the sport to anyone who doesn’t feel like dodging kids zooming around at twice the speed anyone expects.

busymom0 5y ago

How does law enforcement check if you are pedalling or not?

pletnes 5y ago
On my bikes (we have 2), the electronics controlling the motor only allows the motor to run when pedaling with some force. I guess law enforcement can see if you’re pedaling, if they have one eye open. If accidents happen, they can test equipment to ser if it’s illegaly imported / not approved / tampered with / etc. As usual, «don’t get caught» works up until a point. If you want to go fast, just get a motorbike. Why bother tampering with a pedelec?
- glogla 5y ago
  > If you want to go fast, just get a motorbike. Why bother tampering with a pedelec? Because in a lot of places you're vastly less likely to be killed by a car on a cycle path on bike than on a road on motorbike. I mean I'm not sure it's good, since this will just gradually make the cycle paths less safe as well, but at the moment it is what the math says.
  - karatinversion 5y ago
    If that’s the logic, why not simply drive the motorbike on the cycle path?
    - AnthonBerg 5y ago
      That is indeed what is happening which confirms the presence of this logic of incentives. It’s motorcycles which look like bicycles. On cycle paths. Killing people. This needs to be addressed with a societal mechanism.
  - Angostura 5y ago
    That's why I always drive my car on pavements/sidewalks. Its so much safer for me.
  - notacoward 5y ago
    > this will just gradually make the cycle paths less safe Not gradually. It's already well under way.
mellavora 5y ago
You do know that police officer evidence is typically treated as unquestionable by courts? So if the officer says you were not pedalling, then you have an uphill battle to prove you were.
batushka3 5y ago
For example in Berlin everything electric with throtle is baned
gambiting 5y ago
In practice - no one will. But if you get into an accident(especially if anyone is harmed) you can absolutely be sure that the police will check if your ebike was legal at the time or not. If they find you had a motor more powerful than allowed, or that it could ride without pedalling, you will find yourself in a situation where you caused an accident riding an illegaly modified vehicle - and will most likely be found at fault regardless of anything else. And that's not a good position to be in.

baq 5y ago

A throttle in a cargo bike helps a lot when going uphill, and especially so when you had to stop while going uphill. Haven’t tried the alternative, though.

tapland 5y ago
Non throttled ones often have a few different assist settings that work for hills. A throttled one with no pedaling is just a moped. Those aren't allowed in bike lanes in most places.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Not allowed but endemic where I live. It’s really funny, my 3yo daughter started calling them “monsters” for some reason. “Daddy daddy there’s a monster behind us!”. I make a point of not correcting her.

pletnes 5y ago

Some bikes have a «walk assist» function to let you get a little help when parking, walking with the bike, etc. My Bosch mid-drive does that. I bike all winter (64 deg north) with a bunch of kids + cargo, works great.

cunidev 5y ago

Similarly, some models suggested have overpowered (or "illegal") engines, as subtly admitted. Going that fast on a bike is by no means safe, if anything because of tyres.

entropicgravity 5y ago
Pedal bikes will get up to speeds well over 20mph(30kph) going downhill and their tires are still safe.
- gambiting 5y ago
  I mean......based on what? Like don't get me wrong, I used to do a lot of mountain cycling on a road bike, and going downhill I'd approach 60mph(100km/h) easily.....but I was never under any illusion that it's "safe" to do, or that the manufacturer even tested the tyres up to that speed. They just happened to work when we did it.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    Road bike tyres are clearly expected to hold at speeds like 50-60kph... that’s not even fast for a descent. And commuter bike tyres are usually substantially beefier.
  - entropicgravity 5y ago
    Lawyers.
  - cranekam 5y ago
    What would you expect to happen to the tyres at high speed? I assume at some speed they’ll fall apart or something but that surely must be at more than 100kph. The things are already holding in air at 100psi+ — why would rolling quickly be an issue? Of course, at 100kph you might have other issues, like stopping in time, but I wouldn’t expect my tyres to fall apart under me. If you have any further information on this topic I’d love to see it!
    - 5y ago

bambax 5y ago

Yeah idk why he seems to imply you can't have a throttle with a mid drive. Of course you can. But yes in many places if the bike has a throttle it ceases to be an ebike (a bike) and has to have insurance and papers, etc.

drakonka 5y ago
Yes; the only thing that makes my ebike a "Moped Class II" instead of an ebike is its throttle. I am able to legally use bike lanes, but also need to have traffic insurance to use it. It's been a life saver during the pandemic to avoid public transport, but it isn't my normal "daily rider" since it's just less convenient to lug out of storage on a regular basis than my Brompton.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

The only downside I've found with my mid-drive is it chews through chains quite quickly.

Filligree 5y ago
You... probably can't retrofit a belt, but I find they do live up to the advertisement. Zero maintenance needed, zero trouble so far. (After around two thousand kilometers.)
- steve_adams_86 5y ago
  Nice, I wonder what that would take for mine. I doubt it's possible. I just had my change replaced at 2500km though and it was quite expensive. Given how much mileage the bike gets, I feel like something more durable would be worthwhile.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    It's reasonably easy to replace the chain yourself if you want to control costs. https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-replacement-derailleur-bikes https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-replacement-...
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  Yes, when I replace the it I will probably go for belt drive with a Rohloff hub.

dreamcompiler 5y ago

> Not sure about there, but pedaling as little as zero is illegal in several countries. It's not illegal in the US as long as total wattage is less than 750 and max speed is <=20mph.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
It actually depends 100% on the trail or road you’re riding on and how it’s licensed. You can have a pure electric motorcycle with throttle licenses for street use. No power or speed limits (obviously). But most bike paths have been designated “No motorized vehicles” from the time before e-bikes. There have been exceptions carved out in some places for pedal-assist bikes, but having a pure throttle would not comply with the pedal-assist requirement. The problem is that e-bike companies know that a lot of people really don’t want to pedal or be limited to 20mph or 750W, so a lot of the e-bikes you can buy today are easily hackable by design. It’s common for people to buy an e-bike compliant with these regulations and then immediately modify it to remove the limits and add a throttle. Now they have an electric motorcycle that looks like a compliant e-bike from the outside. And to be honest, they’re ruining e-biking for everyone. My local trails are filled with people flying around at motorcycle speeds while the rest of us are moving at pedal speeds. They’re tearing up the trails because they can put 1500W or more into spinning the rear wheel without feedback while the trails were designed for us manual bikers putting a few hundred watts at most into the rear wheel with direct feedback to feel any spin. Locally, there’s a backlash of denying any e-bike from common trails because they’ve morphed into a loophole to motorcycle around. It’s unfortunate because I really wanted pedal assist e-bikes to open the sport to older and less physically fit riders, but instead it’s closing the sport to anyone who doesn’t feel like dodging kids zooming around at twice the speed anyone expects.