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77% if you count land for grazing, otherwise useless to agriculture. If you go back 500 years you know what your find on that land? Just as many Buffalo as ther
by blizdiddy 5y ago
77% if you count land for grazing, otherwise useless to agriculture. If you go back 500 years you know what your find on that land? Just as many Buffalo as there are cows today. Feeding the world means using ruminants to turn grass into protein.
- crakenzak 5y ago> Just as many Buffalo as there are cows today. I’m very skeptical of this. Citation needed please.
- missedthecue 5y agoApparently as many as 100 million on the American plains once upon a time, according to Google
- lovemenot 5y agoI wonder how many bison there were before the last Ice Age. Before the land-bridge and before humans from Asia arrived with their slash-and-burn.
- alex_young 5y agoWikipedia cites ~60M bison pre-1800 [1] USDA ~93M cattle currently [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_bison#Hunting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_bison#Hunting [2] https://www.nass.usda.gov/Newsroom/2021/01-29-2021.php https://www.nass.usda.gov/Newsroom/2021/01-29-2021.php
- littlestymaar 5y agoIs the 60M figure for what is now the US or for all North America ? If that's the latter, you'd need to add Canadian cattle as well, around 11M[1]. [1] https://agriculture.canada.ca/en/canadas-agriculture-sectors/animal-industry/red-meat-and-livestock-market-information/inventories https://agriculture.canada.ca/en/canadas-agriculture-sectors...
- throwamon 5y agoI'm pretty sure there were no buffalo in the Amazon or Pantanal 500 years ago.
- mkoubaa 5y agoGiant sloths were a thing
- bpodgursky 5y agoIt's actually pretty clear from new imagery the Amazon was significantly deforested and farmed before European diseases wiped out the natives. And before that, the extinctions mammoths and mastadons (by humans) led to a lot of tree cover that was grassland when the grazers kept the forests in check.
- mistrial9 5y agoarea check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest the amazing, Amazon Basin, is far, far larger than any previous human terraculture eh?
- pomian 5y agoThere was an interesting discussion on HN not too long ago (1-3 months?), that we have been wrong about human stress on mammoths etc. We should find it. As usual we learn neat things on HN.
- lucidguppy 5y agoWhy do you need protein from ruminants? Why not pulses?
- flenserboy 5y agoBioavailability. Plants are awful as protein sources for humans. Ruminants are awesome as plant processors for the providing of protein to humans.
- colordrops 5y agoYou're gonna have to provide a source for that. Just because less meat is needed for the same amount of protein doesn't make it better or more healthy.
- flenserboy 5y agoThere's a difference between crude protein and quality protein. Here's a place to start — https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-018-1009-y/tables/2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-018-1009-y/.... Compare the DIAAS scores (see a short overview of DIAAS here — https://www.arlafoodsingredients.com/the-whey-and-protein-blog/research/quality-trumps-quantity-why-diaas-is-the-preferred-protein-model/ https://www.arlafoodsingredients.com/the-whey-and-protein-bl...). Plant-based sources of indispensable amino acids are lacking; that, combined with the sheer amount of water and energy necessary to produce & process them make them a very bad choice indeed, especially set against pastured ruminants, as (primary) protein sources. The suggestions for protein intake in the Mayo article cited by blacksmith_tb are minimal levels; more (and quality) protein is needed for better health, not merely for getting enough.
- wumpus 5y agoPastured ruminants? In the US, cows are fed corn at feedlots to double production. You're comparing to the wrong thing.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jjtheblunt 5y ago> Just as many Buffalo as there are cows today. is there a citation for that claim?
- timClicks 5y agoThat's a very US-centric viewpoint. I mean, New Zealand didn't have any land-dwelling mammals except for the rat 500 years ago.
- Aromasin 5y agoSame in the UK (barring the mammals point). The country was 60-80% temperate rainforest before human habitation, depending on what research you go by. I grew up in the countryside. I cannot tell you how impossible it is to convince someone, who is dead set on consuming animal products, that we could regenerate that land if only we got rid of the cattle/fodder though. It's always "that land can't be used for anything else" or "having animals grazing there is good for the land", and that is just demonstrably false in every way. It's baffling that there can literally be old growth forest just on the other side of the hill, and the farmers will be adamant that the land they're on would be useless and barren if it weren't for them - as they continue to staunchly cut back the hedgerows and mow their fields every few months. Having been part of forest regeneration efforts across the UK - from southern heathlands to rocky Welsh and Scottish outcrops, good for "nothing but sheep" - I can say with all certainty that every part of the country except the most extreme alpine regions is suitable for reforestation or some form of plantation dense rewilding. People are completely ignorant to how the country looked before we levelled it for grazing, viewing the 70% ecologically barren agricultural land (of which 80% of that is used for grazing or feeding cattle) as the norm and the 2.5% old growth forest as a more novelty, and something strangely "unique to that area". If you're from New Zealand, this video is especially poignant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VZSJKbzyMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VZSJKbzyMc
- perfunctory 5y agoUnfortunately there is no enough grassland to maintain the current levels of beef consumption. Most beef we consume is not grass-fed. So if you want to feed the world by converting grass into protein, that would mean just the same - radical reduction in meat consumption.
- unmole 5y ago> Feeding the world means using ruminants to turn grass into protein. Beef is not an essential staple. It's probably the worst kind of meat in terms of environmental impact.