4 ms·

But if economic opportunity is concentrated in cities that are too expensive for average working people to live in (even when renting instead of buying), then t

But if economic opportunity is concentrated in cities that are too expensive for average working people to live in (even when renting instead of buying), then this is a societal problem. Even if the shift to working from home for some occupations becomes permanent, not all jobs can be performed from home. While some metropolises such as Tokyo seem to be set up well for providing housing at a wide range of price points, others such as the San Francisco Bay Area and Los Angeles do a much worse job; there are some people who regularly commute 2-3 hours each way from these metro areas because this is all they can afford, yet the job markets in the Central Valley (near the Bay Area) or the Inland Empire and Antelope Valley (both near Los Angeles) areas are rather anemic at best. For many of these people, the choice isn't between a condo in Fremont versus a single-family house in Tracy. Instead, it's an apartment in a place like Stockton or Modesto versus moving outside of the orbit of the Bay Area; that's how bad the housing crisis has gotten for many people. The chief cause of this is zoning regulations and other policies in the Bay Area and Los Angeles that discourage denser development, thus encouraging sprawl further and further out; hence, the "drive until you qualify" phenomenon. The normalization of mega-commuting has social and environmental consequences. Yes, there are cheaper metro areas, but these cheaper metro areas tend to offer fewer job opportunities compared to the more popular metro areas. Part of what fueled the social divide between "blue state" and "red state" America is economic opportunity being increasingly concentrated in a handful of coastal metro areas, while these opportunities have largely failed to trickle down to much of rural America and the Rust Belt. What's needed are two solutions: 1. Change the zoning policies of certain metro areas in order to accommodate the demand through densification instead of sprawl. 2. Find ways to encourage the economic development of areas outside of the coasts.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
What about a Singapore style solution? As a city state, they don't have the benefit of having anywhere else to go, so public housing schemes (government provides affordable apartments to rent, no short term speculations allowed) are the main way to go. Or we could make housing depreciate like in Tokyo (and allow for low end small rooms without central heating).
- linguae 5y ago
  Sadly public housing in the United States has been a policy failure that's tied to our issues regarding poverty and race. The only way I see public housing working in an American context is if it was seen to benefit the middle class, kind of like how FHA loans and the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac programs exist to help middle class households get mortgages with low down payments. I also know that some Bay Area municipalities have below-market rentals and for-purchase developments; some municipalities require all significant housing developments to set aside some below-market units. Disclaimer: I grew up poor and I have relatives who lived in public housing; the environments they lived in were very rough, not only in terms of the quality of housing, but also in terms of living in crime-ridden neighborhoods. Now, I'm not saying that public housing has to be that way; I've heard good things about Singapore's public housing.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    I don't think "public housing in the USA" and "public housing in Singapore" are the same thing at all. The former was rent subsidized or even free housing given to the poor. The latter is probably subsidized socially, but is aimed at the middle class and involves letting people "buy housing" from the government, they aren't slums that are given away. The only thing that Americans might hate about it is that they are universally 30 story concrete apartment buildings that Singapore is selling to its citizens at affordable costs. If you want detached, that is the private market and will cost a lot.
- refurb 5y ago
  Singapore's public housing system is out of control as well. If you meet income requirements you can buy an HDB. Currently backlog for new HDBs is ~4-5 years. You can't buy one unless you are married or over 35 years old. One new HDB development was 10x oversubscribed. Highly desirable HDBs are like winning a lottery, after 5 years you can sell and keep the appreciation (gov't is looking to clawback in the future). People "COV = cash over value" to get HDBs on the secondary market. 1000 sq ft HDBs can cost $1M SGD.
klipt 5y ago
> But if economic opportunity is concentrated in cities that are too expensive for average working people to live in Maybe an "opportunity" that doesn't provide a living wage isn't actually an opportunity at all?
aorloff 5y ago
3rd solution (in addition) - invest in rail to areas with cheaper housing and more land. If BART went to Stockton for example.
- linguae 5y ago
  There are some rail options for those commuting from Stockton: - The Amtrak San Joaquins train (https://www.amtrak.com/san-joaquins-train https://www.amtrak.com/san-joaquins-train) connects Stockton with Richmond, where passengers can transfer to BART. - For those headed to Silicon Valley, the Altamont Commuter Express runs from Stockton to San Jose (https://acerail.com https://acerail.com) I'm looking forward to the California High Speed Rail project being completed. This will make a commute from places like Merced, Madera, and Fresno much more feasible. Currently it's possible to drive from San Jose to Fresno in less than three hours; the bullet train will likely cut the duration of this trip by half. I agree with you; it would be nice to see some nice transit-oriented developments spring up around train stations in the Central Valley.
ericmay 5y ago
With you almost all the way but: > there are some people who regularly commute 2-3 hours each way from these metro areas because this is all they can afford, yet the job markets in the Central Valley (near the Bay Area) or the Inland Empire and Antelope Valley (both near Los Angeles) areas are rather anemic at best. Just move. If you don’t, I find it hard to be sympathetic. Family w/e you can make it work. This is peak American bullshit to drive 2 hours each way to work and if you are putting up with that it’s on you.
- linguae 5y ago
  Yeah, there comes a point where someone must accept defeat regarding the Bay Area's unaffordability. Mega-commuting for more affordable housing sounds appealing on paper but quickly gets draining and is unsustainable, from both a personal and environmental standpoint. I used to commute 50 miles each way every day for a few months back in 2015 and ended up sucking it up and paying the higher rent to live closer to the office due to the effects the commute were having on me. I believe part of the reason why San Joaquin County had so many foreclosures in 2008 was because of mega-commuters dealing with $4+/gal gas for the first time. I don't mind doing a long commute once or twice a week, especially when I have flexible work hours, but anything more often than that becomes draining.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

What about a Singapore style solution? As a city state, they don't have the benefit of having anywhere else to go, so public housing schemes (government provides affordable apartments to rent, no short term speculations allowed) are the main way to go. Or we could make housing depreciate like in Tokyo (and allow for low end small rooms without central heating).

linguae 5y ago
Sadly public housing in the United States has been a policy failure that's tied to our issues regarding poverty and race. The only way I see public housing working in an American context is if it was seen to benefit the middle class, kind of like how FHA loans and the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac programs exist to help middle class households get mortgages with low down payments. I also know that some Bay Area municipalities have below-market rentals and for-purchase developments; some municipalities require all significant housing developments to set aside some below-market units. Disclaimer: I grew up poor and I have relatives who lived in public housing; the environments they lived in were very rough, not only in terms of the quality of housing, but also in terms of living in crime-ridden neighborhoods. Now, I'm not saying that public housing has to be that way; I've heard good things about Singapore's public housing.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  I don't think "public housing in the USA" and "public housing in Singapore" are the same thing at all. The former was rent subsidized or even free housing given to the poor. The latter is probably subsidized socially, but is aimed at the middle class and involves letting people "buy housing" from the government, they aren't slums that are given away. The only thing that Americans might hate about it is that they are universally 30 story concrete apartment buildings that Singapore is selling to its citizens at affordable costs. If you want detached, that is the private market and will cost a lot.
refurb 5y ago
Singapore's public housing system is out of control as well. If you meet income requirements you can buy an HDB. Currently backlog for new HDBs is ~4-5 years. You can't buy one unless you are married or over 35 years old. One new HDB development was 10x oversubscribed. Highly desirable HDBs are like winning a lottery, after 5 years you can sell and keep the appreciation (gov't is looking to clawback in the future). People "COV = cash over value" to get HDBs on the secondary market. 1000 sq ft HDBs can cost $1M SGD.

klipt 5y ago

> But if economic opportunity is concentrated in cities that are too expensive for average working people to live in Maybe an "opportunity" that doesn't provide a living wage isn't actually an opportunity at all?

aorloff 5y ago

3rd solution (in addition) - invest in rail to areas with cheaper housing and more land. If BART went to Stockton for example.

linguae 5y ago
There are some rail options for those commuting from Stockton: - The Amtrak San Joaquins train (https://www.amtrak.com/san-joaquins-train https://www.amtrak.com/san-joaquins-train) connects Stockton with Richmond, where passengers can transfer to BART. - For those headed to Silicon Valley, the Altamont Commuter Express runs from Stockton to San Jose (https://acerail.com https://acerail.com) I'm looking forward to the California High Speed Rail project being completed. This will make a commute from places like Merced, Madera, and Fresno much more feasible. Currently it's possible to drive from San Jose to Fresno in less than three hours; the bullet train will likely cut the duration of this trip by half. I agree with you; it would be nice to see some nice transit-oriented developments spring up around train stations in the Central Valley.

ericmay 5y ago

With you almost all the way but: > there are some people who regularly commute 2-3 hours each way from these metro areas because this is all they can afford, yet the job markets in the Central Valley (near the Bay Area) or the Inland Empire and Antelope Valley (both near Los Angeles) areas are rather anemic at best. Just move. If you don’t, I find it hard to be sympathetic. Family w/e you can make it work. This is peak American bullshit to drive 2 hours each way to work and if you are putting up with that it’s on you.

linguae 5y ago
Yeah, there comes a point where someone must accept defeat regarding the Bay Area's unaffordability. Mega-commuting for more affordable housing sounds appealing on paper but quickly gets draining and is unsustainable, from both a personal and environmental standpoint. I used to commute 50 miles each way every day for a few months back in 2015 and ended up sucking it up and paying the higher rent to live closer to the office due to the effects the commute were having on me. I believe part of the reason why San Joaquin County had so many foreclosures in 2008 was because of mega-commuters dealing with $4+/gal gas for the first time. I don't mind doing a long commute once or twice a week, especially when I have flexible work hours, but anything more often than that becomes draining.