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You could say we do those things better or with greater complexity, but they are all there in other species. 1- Language: https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/20

You could say we do those things better or with greater complexity, but they are all there in other species. 1- Language: https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2019/river-dolphins-surprisingly-large-vocabulary/ https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2019/river-dolphins-surpr... 2- Complex tools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_use_by_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_use_by_animals 3- Symbolism: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080610212404.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080610212404.h... 4- Visual Art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowerbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowerbird 5- Music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoomusicology#Music_produced_by_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoomusicology#Music_produced_b... 6- Religion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_behavior_in_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_behavior_in_animals

andrepd 5y ago
1. Communication ≠ Language 2. I said "complex tools", not "tools". Yes animals use rocks to crack things. Do they build spears, clothes, pots, pulleys, ships, buildings, bridges, computers? I don't think so. 3. Quite a limited study, but I admit it's interesting, thanks. 4. Building a shiny nest has a functional purpose of signalling sexual desirability to potential mates by building a big decorated nest. There is no evidence any animal has a sense of aesthetics as such. 5. Birdsong has a functional purpose of communication and sexual mate-finding. There is no evidence any animal has a sense of aesthetics as such. 6. First sentence of your link: "There is no evidence that any non-human animals believe in God or gods, pray, worship, have any notion of metaphysics, create artifacts with ritual significance, or many other behaviours typical of human significance, or many other behaviours typical of human religion."
- hetspookjee 5y ago
  First of all I don't get why one would take such a dismissive stance on animals while still knowing so little about them. The fact that something stupendous as learning that parrots acknowledge currency is a front page article in 2021 is a mere indication of the poor state of knowledge that we still have. Regarding the points you make, imagine if there were a evolutionary algorithm that learned to interact with animals such that it can "teach" animals to use certain things to their advantage, and evolve with them. Yes the algorithm has the true intelligence, but these critters have learned themselves to interact with such a device. Now apply this algorithm for generations and make the interaction with such an algorithm part of their nature. I am confident that you'd be suprised how far complex behaviour could go when provided the right stimuli. Mind you that humanity was a simpleton organism a couple of millenia ago compared to what the modern era human are now. It took millions of years for us to reach this pivoting point where one is able to create the things you mention. I think you attribute a lot of the seeming intelligence humanity has that is learned over cultural habbits, than is intrinsically present. Sure you might argue that culture is part of intelligence.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > I don't get why one would take such a dismissive stance on animals while still knowing so little about them. It is the only way to have such a stance. The more you know, the more you empathise.
- convolvatron 5y ago
  I do in general agree with you. but it occurred to me - how many of the behaviors we take as signs of advanced cognition in humans are the result of evolution to improve mating outcome?

andrepd 5y ago

1. Communication ≠ Language 2. I said "complex tools", not "tools". Yes animals use rocks to crack things. Do they build spears, clothes, pots, pulleys, ships, buildings, bridges, computers? I don't think so. 3. Quite a limited study, but I admit it's interesting, thanks. 4. Building a shiny nest has a functional purpose of signalling sexual desirability to potential mates by building a big decorated nest. There is no evidence any animal has a sense of aesthetics as such. 5. Birdsong has a functional purpose of communication and sexual mate-finding. There is no evidence any animal has a sense of aesthetics as such. 6. First sentence of your link: "There is no evidence that any non-human animals believe in God or gods, pray, worship, have any notion of metaphysics, create artifacts with ritual significance, or many other behaviours typical of human significance, or many other behaviours typical of human religion."

hetspookjee 5y ago
First of all I don't get why one would take such a dismissive stance on animals while still knowing so little about them. The fact that something stupendous as learning that parrots acknowledge currency is a front page article in 2021 is a mere indication of the poor state of knowledge that we still have. Regarding the points you make, imagine if there were a evolutionary algorithm that learned to interact with animals such that it can "teach" animals to use certain things to their advantage, and evolve with them. Yes the algorithm has the true intelligence, but these critters have learned themselves to interact with such a device. Now apply this algorithm for generations and make the interaction with such an algorithm part of their nature. I am confident that you'd be suprised how far complex behaviour could go when provided the right stimuli. Mind you that humanity was a simpleton organism a couple of millenia ago compared to what the modern era human are now. It took millions of years for us to reach this pivoting point where one is able to create the things you mention. I think you attribute a lot of the seeming intelligence humanity has that is learned over cultural habbits, than is intrinsically present. Sure you might argue that culture is part of intelligence.
- krageon 5y ago
  > I don't get why one would take such a dismissive stance on animals while still knowing so little about them. It is the only way to have such a stance. The more you know, the more you empathise.
convolvatron 5y ago
I do in general agree with you. but it occurred to me - how many of the behaviors we take as signs of advanced cognition in humans are the result of evolution to improve mating outcome?