5 ms·

I've got the same old-fashioned mechanical timer. I actually attached it to one of those "box fan filters" that people talk about here from time to time. (So I

I've got the same old-fashioned mechanical timer. I actually attached it to one of those "box fan filters" that people talk about here from time to time. (So I can filter on a schedule) It works perfectly, and I've never had any issues with it. I'm thoroughly convinced that if I tried to replace it with a "smart" device I'd have no shortage of issues. I like your thinking regarding the lack of reliability with these smart devices. It's clearly possible to build these sorts of things reliably, but for some reason there doesn't seem to be any market pressure on companies to do so. If that's the case, then consumers must at least partially be to blame.

londons_explore 5y ago
Whats needed is a much stronger guarantee. For example, "If this device ever, even once, shows an error message or misbehaves, then we'll give you a full refund, plus $100". If there was some logo and brand associated with that guarantee, consumers would prefer it, just like today some only buy organic or freetrade. Then manufacturers would want the extra sales generated by that logo/brand, and have a massive financial incentive to only apply the logo when the product is good enough.
- julianlam 5y ago
  There is the UL certification, but I doubt it covers software. That's the crux of the issue, isn't, that _mechanically_ everything is working fine, but something outside of the control of the unit (e.g. spotty wifi, internet connectivity issues) cause UX issues. In the end, whose fault is it?
  - nradov 5y ago
    UL certification is really all about safety, as in a software defect won't cause an electrical fire and burn your house down. They don't guarantee a good user experience.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    Well spotty WiFi and internet connectivity issues probably aren't the homeowners fault either... The fault probably lies with the ISP, the router manufacturer, or someone else. Let the gadget manufacturers guarantee pay out, and they can try to chase the ISP themselves. If the issue doesn't get fixed, they can simply say "IoT doorbell (reliability guarantee excludes use with Comcast)"
- op00to 5y ago
  I prefer to buy and use stuff with “open”-ish interfaces. This is usually more commercial, industrial, or high end, but I don’t need my request to turn on the light to go to some server in AWS. I like these openish interfaces because when it breaks, I can fix it.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  > "If this device ever, even once, shows an error message or misbehaves, then we'll give you a full refund, plus $100". Apple solved this by just never showing error messa...Your computer was restarted because of a problem.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    If you’re referring to the quoted message specifically, that’s not really fair. It’s a kernel panic, you can’t do much except reboot. Once the Mac has finished starting up again, the backtrace is easily accessible for those who want it. And if you really want to always see console output, you can turn on verbose boot permanently.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  To take this further... To mean anything, this guarantee needs to apply unconditionally and forever. Even in 50 years... Even when the manufacturer is bankrupt. To do that, There could be a "Will Work Guarantee" organisation. The organisation will administer refunds to all customers with claims, (and combat fraud). Companies who want to be members of the scheme must pay into the scheme to cover payouts for their own products, plus a deposit for future failures of their products if they go bankrupt.
  - h2odragon 5y ago
    Of course this would have to be a Government service, maybe just government backed; and would have to set barriers to market entry and enforce standards to keep obvious trash off the market... "Ministry of Production" perhaps? Can't imagine any downsides.
  - ggcdn 5y ago
    That’s why I like buying things from Costco when I can. they have a 100% satisfaction guarantee on most items. And I’m willing to bet on the longevity of Costco more than any manufacturers of goods.
    - tunap 5y ago
      Back during the 'Capcitor Plague', when HP lied and denied there was a problem, Costco replaced 3 out of warranty HP laptops for my clients who bought them there. Their customer service, quality meats and they pay their employees well, are a few of the reasons why I prefer to give them my money. Related: MSI replaced 15 OoW mainboards without proof of purchase, too. They merely asked for serial numbers and shipped them out in a timely manner. Can you guess who's boards I used exclusively when building towers over the last 15 years?
- msla 5y ago
  > "If this device ever, even once, shows an error message or misbehaves, then we'll give you a full refund, plus $100". Your device stopped working because the server it syncs with is gone because the company that owned the server is gone. Who gives you your money now?
  - Fuzzwah 5y ago
    I think that the point is that if a company puts forward such a guarantee they wouldn't release products that relied on anything external.
    - msla 5y ago
      More likely, they conclude that if they don't exist, they can't be fined.
1-more 5y ago
This is wild to me, since I'm getting my parents HomeKit smart plugs because their old fashioned mechanical timers are crapping out all the time and not running their grow lights at the right times.

londons_explore 5y ago

Whats needed is a much stronger guarantee. For example, "If this device ever, even once, shows an error message or misbehaves, then we'll give you a full refund, plus $100". If there was some logo and brand associated with that guarantee, consumers would prefer it, just like today some only buy organic or freetrade. Then manufacturers would want the extra sales generated by that logo/brand, and have a massive financial incentive to only apply the logo when the product is good enough.

julianlam 5y ago
There is the UL certification, but I doubt it covers software. That's the crux of the issue, isn't, that _mechanically_ everything is working fine, but something outside of the control of the unit (e.g. spotty wifi, internet connectivity issues) cause UX issues. In the end, whose fault is it?
- nradov 5y ago
  UL certification is really all about safety, as in a software defect won't cause an electrical fire and burn your house down. They don't guarantee a good user experience.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  Well spotty WiFi and internet connectivity issues probably aren't the homeowners fault either... The fault probably lies with the ISP, the router manufacturer, or someone else. Let the gadget manufacturers guarantee pay out, and they can try to chase the ISP themselves. If the issue doesn't get fixed, they can simply say "IoT doorbell (reliability guarantee excludes use with Comcast)"
op00to 5y ago
I prefer to buy and use stuff with “open”-ish interfaces. This is usually more commercial, industrial, or high end, but I don’t need my request to turn on the light to go to some server in AWS. I like these openish interfaces because when it breaks, I can fix it.
ethbr0 5y ago
> "If this device ever, even once, shows an error message or misbehaves, then we'll give you a full refund, plus $100". Apple solved this by just never showing error messa...Your computer was restarted because of a problem.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  If you’re referring to the quoted message specifically, that’s not really fair. It’s a kernel panic, you can’t do much except reboot. Once the Mac has finished starting up again, the backtrace is easily accessible for those who want it. And if you really want to always see console output, you can turn on verbose boot permanently.
londons_explore 5y ago
To take this further... To mean anything, this guarantee needs to apply unconditionally and forever. Even in 50 years... Even when the manufacturer is bankrupt. To do that, There could be a "Will Work Guarantee" organisation. The organisation will administer refunds to all customers with claims, (and combat fraud). Companies who want to be members of the scheme must pay into the scheme to cover payouts for their own products, plus a deposit for future failures of their products if they go bankrupt.
- h2odragon 5y ago
  Of course this would have to be a Government service, maybe just government backed; and would have to set barriers to market entry and enforce standards to keep obvious trash off the market... "Ministry of Production" perhaps? Can't imagine any downsides.
- ggcdn 5y ago
  That’s why I like buying things from Costco when I can. they have a 100% satisfaction guarantee on most items. And I’m willing to bet on the longevity of Costco more than any manufacturers of goods.
  - tunap 5y ago
    Back during the 'Capcitor Plague', when HP lied and denied there was a problem, Costco replaced 3 out of warranty HP laptops for my clients who bought them there. Their customer service, quality meats and they pay their employees well, are a few of the reasons why I prefer to give them my money. Related: MSI replaced 15 OoW mainboards without proof of purchase, too. They merely asked for serial numbers and shipped them out in a timely manner. Can you guess who's boards I used exclusively when building towers over the last 15 years?
msla 5y ago
> "If this device ever, even once, shows an error message or misbehaves, then we'll give you a full refund, plus $100". Your device stopped working because the server it syncs with is gone because the company that owned the server is gone. Who gives you your money now?
- Fuzzwah 5y ago
  I think that the point is that if a company puts forward such a guarantee they wouldn't release products that relied on anything external.
  - msla 5y ago
    More likely, they conclude that if they don't exist, they can't be fined.

1-more 5y ago

This is wild to me, since I'm getting my parents HomeKit smart plugs because their old fashioned mechanical timers are crapping out all the time and not running their grow lights at the right times.