4 ms·

> often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing This sounds very suspect to me. Do you have any sources

> often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing This sounds very suspect to me. Do you have any sources for this assertion? I've never heard of a church requiring any form of support, tithe etc to be a member or at all. I've been attending church and have been a member of several for 20+ years.

andrew_ 5y ago
I'm in my 40s and attended a Baptist Church in my youth that required formal members to tithe. It was the primary reason my parents stopped taking us there. > Do you have any sources for this assertion? Don't be that person. Take or leave the anecdote, but don't make an asinine request of evidence for something clearly anecdotal.
- theonething 5y ago
  > clearly anecdotal. Take a look again at their statement > but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing note the word "often". How is that clearly anecdotal? If the commenter had framed it as their own experience at a church they attended, I'd have no problem believing them. But clearly that's not the case. They are making a general assertion about most (or many) churches. And please be a bit more respectful and charitable. It's more conducive to discussion and common decency.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > be a bit more respectful and charitable Helping people see that their behaviour is not acceptable in a relatively mild manner is very respectful. The charitability thing is not really all that relevant here, because the words were not taken in a bad light - both of you agree on what was said. What you don't agree on is whether or not it should have been said, which no amount of charitable reading will fix.
    - theonething 5y ago
      > Helping people see that their behaviour is not acceptable in a relatively mild manner is very respectful. The premise of andrew_14's correction, that the gp comment is anecdotal is totally wrong. I thought I'd made that clear. So I'm genuinely curious, how was my behavior unacceptable? Here is the flow of discussion: Turing_Machine: "often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing" Me: (paraphrased) That doesn't seem true that often being a member of a church requires support such as tithing. Could you give me some sources for this? Again, please explain to me why responding to a blanket assertion by asking for evidence is unacceptable behavior? I see it here all the time. > relatively mild manner is very respectful Describing my request as asinine which means extremely stupid is relatively mild and respectful? Relative to what? Getting punched in the face? I beg to differ that is was mild and respectful. Even if he put it in a respectable way like "I don't think your request is reasonable given the statement was anecdotal", again, the premise of his comment is totally wrong so his correction of my behavior is fallacious. > The charitability thing is not really all that relevant here, because the words were not taken in a bad light - both of you agree on what was said. I'm confused by this. I don't think both of us agree on what was said (your words). But since I don't quite understand what you are saying, I can't comment further. What words were not taken in a bad light? That he said my request is really stupid? I take that in a bad light. And what was said that we both agree on?
Turing_Machine 5y ago
Just a quick, non-exhaustive web search: http://ascensionfairview.org/contribute/parish-membership/ http://ascensionfairview.org/contribute/parish-membership/ (Orthodox) $450/year https://www.templeshalom.org/dues https://www.templeshalom.org/dues (Jewish) $3,950/year (based on 2 adult household) https://www.buddhistchurch.org/membership https://www.buddhistchurch.org/membership (Buddhist) $44/month https://beulahbaptist.org/flc/membership/ https://beulahbaptist.org/flc/membership/ (Baptist) $30/month As I said, few churches (or others houses of worship) will charge you a fee for attending services (other than the plate coming around), but if you want a say in church governance you usually have to pony up, either with formal dues or a less-formal expectation that you will provide significant financial support. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you. Have you actually been involved in church governance in the churches you've attended?
- theonething 5y ago
  Thanks for your response. Out of the four you listed, the only church in the traditional sense of the word is the Greek Orthodox parish. The next two are Jewish and Buddhist temples and the fourth one is community/health center offering things like ballroom dance lessons. But if we expand the scope to houses of worship, then temples are included. I think I've heard of churches charging nominal fees for church membership, but not requiring tithing. Tithing is very different from membership fees. It should be strictly voluntary. That's been my experience and observation. I've worked as office staff of a church and I'm currently treasurer of the church I'm a member of now.
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    > I think I've heard of churches charging nominal fees for church membership, but not requiring tithing Requiring tithing is not particularly common, but I'm also not surprised when I hear of churches where it happens. A lot of this probably depends on your tradition and geography. Requiring tithing is entirely unheard of in the mainline and very uncommon in the northeast generally, for example, but seems to be slightly more common among the particularly "charismatic"/"corporate"-style evangelical churches in the suburban and exurban midwest. In any case, I think social pressure on members to tithe is MUCH more common than formal requirements. This might be the source of virulent disagreement. Just because there isn't a formal requirement doesn't mean that there isn't intense social pressure that creates a de facto requirement. IMO both sides of this argument are correct -- formal tithing requirements are rare, but de facto requirements for members to tithe, enforced via social pressure, is probably quite a bit more common than folks who depend on that tithing for their salaries are willing to admit/realize. > the only church... The following rant is specific to the USA. This irritates me beyond words. Christian churches avoid BILLIONS in taxes via laws such as the Parsonage Exemption, whose original de jure justification was "to spread the gospel" -- about as clear a violation of 1A as you can get (to say nothing of the role that "spreading the gospel" played in the cultural and sometimes actual genocide of native populations). Judges uphold these incredibly generous tax laws because, they reason, words like "church" and even "gospel" aren't specific to one religion and ought to be interpreted broadly. Excessively broadly, in the case of "gospel". This review does a good job at explaining the case history and legal reasoning: https://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/51/3/Articles/51-3_Chodorow.pdf https://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/51/3/Articles/51-3_... Without that reasoning, laws like the one that establishes the parsonage exemption would be prime facie and blatantly unconstitutional. Most churches would lose substantial special tax treatment for many parts of their physical plant and fall into financial hardship. That's all fine. Really. But don't try to have it both ways. In the USA, either (a) don't insist on using "church" in a religion/tradition-specific specific way, or (b) start paying a lot more taxes. Anyways, that's all a bit off-topic. The actual point was that I think these folks should accept donations with large nominal "recommended donation" amounts, since I think what they're doing offers way more value than the typical church pastor.
zdragnar 5y ago
Tithing 10% comes from the laws of moses in the old testament, and most denominations agree that providing some material support to the church is an obligation, but dont formally specify the extent. Catholic parishes often recommend 5% to the church, and 5% to the poor / needy through one means or another. OTOH, a nearby Unitarian / mega-style church made signing a form with your annual salary and a pledge to tithe a minimum percentage a formal requirement for membership. I heard they were active in enforcing it, but never bothered joining. I.e. see https://www.uua.org/finance/fundraising/generosity/185418.shtml https://www.uua.org/finance/fundraising/generosity/185418.sh... Note under the "collection plate" header that they suggest you give in a way that has your name on it so it can count toward your pledge- they definitely track individual tithes.
- melony 5y ago
  Are tithes tax deductible?
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Yes.

andrew_ 5y ago

I'm in my 40s and attended a Baptist Church in my youth that required formal members to tithe. It was the primary reason my parents stopped taking us there. > Do you have any sources for this assertion? Don't be that person. Take or leave the anecdote, but don't make an asinine request of evidence for something clearly anecdotal.

theonething 5y ago
> clearly anecdotal. Take a look again at their statement > but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing note the word "often". How is that clearly anecdotal? If the commenter had framed it as their own experience at a church they attended, I'd have no problem believing them. But clearly that's not the case. They are making a general assertion about most (or many) churches. And please be a bit more respectful and charitable. It's more conducive to discussion and common decency.
- krageon 5y ago
  > be a bit more respectful and charitable Helping people see that their behaviour is not acceptable in a relatively mild manner is very respectful. The charitability thing is not really all that relevant here, because the words were not taken in a bad light - both of you agree on what was said. What you don't agree on is whether or not it should have been said, which no amount of charitable reading will fix.
  - theonething 5y ago
    > Helping people see that their behaviour is not acceptable in a relatively mild manner is very respectful. The premise of andrew_14's correction, that the gp comment is anecdotal is totally wrong. I thought I'd made that clear. So I'm genuinely curious, how was my behavior unacceptable? Here is the flow of discussion: Turing_Machine: "often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing" Me: (paraphrased) That doesn't seem true that often being a member of a church requires support such as tithing. Could you give me some sources for this? Again, please explain to me why responding to a blanket assertion by asking for evidence is unacceptable behavior? I see it here all the time. > relatively mild manner is very respectful Describing my request as asinine which means extremely stupid is relatively mild and respectful? Relative to what? Getting punched in the face? I beg to differ that is was mild and respectful. Even if he put it in a respectable way like "I don't think your request is reasonable given the statement was anecdotal", again, the premise of his comment is totally wrong so his correction of my behavior is fallacious. > The charitability thing is not really all that relevant here, because the words were not taken in a bad light - both of you agree on what was said. I'm confused by this. I don't think both of us agree on what was said (your words). But since I don't quite understand what you are saying, I can't comment further. What words were not taken in a bad light? That he said my request is really stupid? I take that in a bad light. And what was said that we both agree on?

Turing_Machine 5y ago

Just a quick, non-exhaustive web search: http://ascensionfairview.org/contribute/parish-membership/ http://ascensionfairview.org/contribute/parish-membership/ (Orthodox) $450/year https://www.templeshalom.org/dues https://www.templeshalom.org/dues (Jewish) $3,950/year (based on 2 adult household) https://www.buddhistchurch.org/membership https://www.buddhistchurch.org/membership (Buddhist) $44/month https://beulahbaptist.org/flc/membership/ https://beulahbaptist.org/flc/membership/ (Baptist) $30/month As I said, few churches (or others houses of worship) will charge you a fee for attending services (other than the plate coming around), but if you want a say in church governance you usually have to pony up, either with formal dues or a less-formal expectation that you will provide significant financial support. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you. Have you actually been involved in church governance in the churches you've attended?

theonething 5y ago
Thanks for your response. Out of the four you listed, the only church in the traditional sense of the word is the Greek Orthodox parish. The next two are Jewish and Buddhist temples and the fourth one is community/health center offering things like ballroom dance lessons. But if we expand the scope to houses of worship, then temples are included. I think I've heard of churches charging nominal fees for church membership, but not requiring tithing. Tithing is very different from membership fees. It should be strictly voluntary. That's been my experience and observation. I've worked as office staff of a church and I'm currently treasurer of the church I'm a member of now.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > I think I've heard of churches charging nominal fees for church membership, but not requiring tithing Requiring tithing is not particularly common, but I'm also not surprised when I hear of churches where it happens. A lot of this probably depends on your tradition and geography. Requiring tithing is entirely unheard of in the mainline and very uncommon in the northeast generally, for example, but seems to be slightly more common among the particularly "charismatic"/"corporate"-style evangelical churches in the suburban and exurban midwest. In any case, I think social pressure on members to tithe is MUCH more common than formal requirements. This might be the source of virulent disagreement. Just because there isn't a formal requirement doesn't mean that there isn't intense social pressure that creates a de facto requirement. IMO both sides of this argument are correct -- formal tithing requirements are rare, but de facto requirements for members to tithe, enforced via social pressure, is probably quite a bit more common than folks who depend on that tithing for their salaries are willing to admit/realize. > the only church... The following rant is specific to the USA. This irritates me beyond words. Christian churches avoid BILLIONS in taxes via laws such as the Parsonage Exemption, whose original de jure justification was "to spread the gospel" -- about as clear a violation of 1A as you can get (to say nothing of the role that "spreading the gospel" played in the cultural and sometimes actual genocide of native populations). Judges uphold these incredibly generous tax laws because, they reason, words like "church" and even "gospel" aren't specific to one religion and ought to be interpreted broadly. Excessively broadly, in the case of "gospel". This review does a good job at explaining the case history and legal reasoning: https://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/51/3/Articles/51-3_Chodorow.pdf https://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/51/3/Articles/51-3_... Without that reasoning, laws like the one that establishes the parsonage exemption would be prime facie and blatantly unconstitutional. Most churches would lose substantial special tax treatment for many parts of their physical plant and fall into financial hardship. That's all fine. Really. But don't try to have it both ways. In the USA, either (a) don't insist on using "church" in a religion/tradition-specific specific way, or (b) start paying a lot more taxes. Anyways, that's all a bit off-topic. The actual point was that I think these folks should accept donations with large nominal "recommended donation" amounts, since I think what they're doing offers way more value than the typical church pastor.

zdragnar 5y ago

Tithing 10% comes from the laws of moses in the old testament, and most denominations agree that providing some material support to the church is an obligation, but dont formally specify the extent. Catholic parishes often recommend 5% to the church, and 5% to the poor / needy through one means or another. OTOH, a nearby Unitarian / mega-style church made signing a form with your annual salary and a pledge to tithe a minimum percentage a formal requirement for membership. I heard they were active in enforcing it, but never bothered joining. I.e. see https://www.uua.org/finance/fundraising/generosity/185418.shtml https://www.uua.org/finance/fundraising/generosity/185418.sh... Note under the "collection plate" header that they suggest you give in a way that has your name on it so it can count toward your pledge- they definitely track individual tithes.

melony 5y ago
Are tithes tax deductible?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Yes.