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This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade childr

by bko 5y ago

This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. Since the organizations feel ashamed that they're failing certain demographics as evidenced by being under-represented in the advanced classes, they're just scrapping the advanced classes for everyone. Truly disgraceful

denkmoon 5y ago
How old is a 9th grade student in the US? My cohort started Algebra in year 7 in Australia, which is 12/13 years old. And similar to GP's proposal, we learn age appropriate topics every single year, every single week.
- d4mi3n 5y ago
  9th grade is the US is freshman year of high school, so most students would be around age 14 ~ 15
- 542458 5y ago
  Grade nine is 14-15 years of age in the US. I agree with you WRT age appropriate-ness. Just because something can or has been introduced at a certain age does not mean that is optimal. I recall a study I saw recently that showed delaying introducing one subject - it may have been math - to very young students had negligible impacts on their scores (compared to students who were introduced earlier) a few years later. The students with a delayed introduction caught up so quickly that the delay didn’t matter. I’ll see if I can dig up a link - EDIT, I’m struggling to find it under all of the COVID-related student-delay-catch-up articles.
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    I would be curious to know about long term retention rather than performance in a class or on a test.
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    Wouldn't that make Grade 12 18 ~ 19 years of age? Has the school age been moved up a year? I vaguely remember the oldest kids in high school being 18.
    - psutor 5y ago
      Don't know if parent has been edited to correct something, but: 9: 14-15 10: 15-16 11: 16-17 12: 17-18
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - nemothekid 5y ago
        Ah that's right. I should have just written in out rather than just adding 4.
        seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        At the end of your freshmen year, you have 3 years until the send of your senior year. See, Algebra is useful for something.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      If you turn 15 in 9th grade, you will turn 18 in 12th grade.
  - bko 5y ago
    > The students with a delayed introduction caught up so quickly that the delay didn’t matter Yes and there are some kids that act up or learn to hate education and the system for being forced into what amounts to remedial classes. Sometimes the brightest children are the most difficult precisely because they're not being challenged. The ideal would be to have every student learn at their own pace. Some children could comprehend algebra in 8th grade, others may never fully comprehend it. Obviously that's impossible at scale. So the best we can do is to separate kids based on ability and interest. Some children can grasp more advanced concepts at an earlier age, while others struggle. That's why generally in schools we have standard classes, special education and gifted classes. The best schools separate it even further offering additional lessons or tutoring to children that are especially curious or require more work. Everyone benefits. This is common sense. There's no such thing as "appropriate topics" for an age. It's all child specific.
    - 542458 5y ago
      Gifted programs do very little or nothing as far as most studies can tell. Any gains in scores are very small, and they don’t appear to make any meaningful difference in student engagement or motivation. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737211008919 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737211008919 https://www.nber.org/papers/w17089 https://www.nber.org/papers/w17089 These programs are relatively expensive, and there’s a strong argument the gifted programs should be overhauled, or that the money could be better spent elsewhere.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - readams 5y ago
        Gifted programs aren't the same thing as tracking kids into more advanced math classes. A gifted program is where you take some kids aside and teach them some random extra stuff, at the end of the day they're still in the regular classes with the other kids also and don't really have a chance to go any faster.
- ldiracdelta 5y ago
  Take the grade and add 5. We generally start Kindergarten at 5 ( kinda grade 0 ).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bigger_cheese 5y ago
  My vague memories of my Australian High school math curriculum (year 7 to 12) was something like this, I went to high school from 1997 to 2002. Year 7 was geometry focused, Pythagoras theorem a lot of graphing things with protractors compasses etc. Calculating angles from parallel lines stuff like that. Year 8 was much more algebra centric quadradic formula, simultaneous equations, expansion of brackets. Year 9 was Trigonometry I remember there was a lot of 3d shapes and volumes. Volume of spheres, cones, pyramids etc. Year 10 was Conic sections circles Ellipsis Parabolas hyperbola etc a lot of graphing again and more advanced trig. In Year 11 and 12 I took the most advanced of the math streams I had two math classes. My other courses were Physics, Chemistry, Biology and English So math was a third of my course load, more if you counted physics which was highly math based as well. Year 11 One class was Calculus focused, limits, fundamental theorem, basic derivatives and simple integration (Simpson's rule and stuff like that). The other class was linear algebra, vecrors, dot and cross products basic matrix manipulation and matrix transformation - reflectons skew etc. Year 12 We covered parametric calculus, complex numbers more advanced integration and derivatives (Chain rule, substitutions etc). I vaguely remember we covered a bit of hyperbolic functions (cosh, sinh etc). The other course was statistics and probability as well things like sequences and series, stuff like binomial theorem. I studied Engineering at uni and my first year university math was pretty much a repeat of year 11 and 12 math but a bit more in depth.
eftychis 5y ago
U.S. is the only country I know that considers algebra advanced. It's fundamental in the rest of the world.
- FormerBandmate 5y ago
  America has absolutely shit-tier education for 80% of the population, and woke people want to make the other 20% also shit to lead to “equity”. Ironically, white parents being able to get around this and black parents not knowing how is the main cause of racial disparities today
- ralusek 5y ago
  They don't, this person is not a reliable source.
Eelongate 5y ago
> This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. I sincerely hope you're not serious about this. I took algebra in 7th grade and I was considered a remedial student with habitually poor grades. If you're telling me I was actually 2 years advanced by present standards, then the situation in California must be deteriorating severely. For reference, this was in an underfunded rural American public school. I was 12.
- RandallBrown 5y ago
  I took algebra in 7th grade as well, but it was considered advanced by 2 years. It was normal to take algebra in 9th grade. I went to an okay high school in a medium sized city in Michigan. That was about 20 years ago.
- function_seven 5y ago
  When I was in 5th grade, I was put into the advanced math class. We graphed equations, learned y=mx+b, slopes, etc. All the basic concepts that are introduced in Algebra 1. When I was in 7th grade, we were taught "what a negative number is." That entire year was a complete and utter waste. But fortunately, 8th grade offered Algebra where I could get back on track. This was 30 years ago, in California. Public school math standards are a joke here, and apparently getting even worse.
- bko 5y ago
  I don't know what to tell you. That's the state of the country. But hey, at least they're honest about why they're doing it: > San Francisco pioneered key aspects of the new approach, opting in 2014 to delay algebra instruction until 9th grade and to push advanced mathematics courses until at least after 10th grade as a means of promoting equity. The school failed the most vulnerable children by objective measures, so they're just trying to get rid of those measures entirely.
  - nimish 5y ago
    Yep it seems like the "equitable" solution to failing children is to simply redefine success. Really, truly worrying that instead of focusing resources to help kids improve and overcome a challenge the answer is to remove the challenge instead.
vntx 5y ago
Indeed. A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. It’s a good thing the US can import talent because California’s students are being trained to be cognitively lazy. How will these children fare in a society that is getting more technologically advanced, dynamic and complex by the day without the problem solving tools to handle it? I can’t wait to find out.
- throwvirtever 5y ago
  > A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. I was under the impression that (actual) communist educational systems were geared predominantly toward the most advanced students, rather than the other way around. Cranking out prizewinning physicists, mathematicians, and chess grand-masters at a somewhat greater than expected rate.
  - anthk 5y ago
    Spivak. Heck, even Yakov Perelman. Recreational Math books that could make American teens cry over themselves.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    "Educational communism" in that it seeks to eliminate inequality (in education) by reducing everyone to zero, just as communism sought to eliminate inequality (in wealth) by reducing everyone to zero. Not "educational communism" in the sense of educational systems modeled on those of communist countries. The analogy is from "if I can't afford a car, then nobody should be allowed to have a car" to "if I can't understand algebra, then nobody should be allowed to learn algebra".
    - vntx 5y ago
      Exactly. I have no idea how people can’t differentiate between educational communism and education systems that were implemented in communist states. Was my wording too confusing?
  - vntx 5y ago
giantg2 5y ago
"This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children." Seriously? Basic algebra was like 7th or 8th grade for me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jvanderbot 5y ago
In the USA, we fight fires by turning off smoke alarms.
tn13 5y ago
This will make life even worse for the marginalized students as well off students will have parents or other sources of learning algebra.
nicoburns 5y ago
It has everything to do with Algebra, because Algebra is only considered advanced because it's not taught until later. Primary school children are perfectly capable of doing algebra as shown by many other countries that teach much more "pure maths" in schools.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by bko 5y ago

denkmoon 5y ago

How old is a 9th grade student in the US? My cohort started Algebra in year 7 in Australia, which is 12/13 years old. And similar to GP's proposal, we learn age appropriate topics every single year, every single week.

d4mi3n 5y ago
9th grade is the US is freshman year of high school, so most students would be around age 14 ~ 15
542458 5y ago
Grade nine is 14-15 years of age in the US. I agree with you WRT age appropriate-ness. Just because something can or has been introduced at a certain age does not mean that is optimal. I recall a study I saw recently that showed delaying introducing one subject - it may have been math - to very young students had negligible impacts on their scores (compared to students who were introduced earlier) a few years later. The students with a delayed introduction caught up so quickly that the delay didn’t matter. I’ll see if I can dig up a link - EDIT, I’m struggling to find it under all of the COVID-related student-delay-catch-up articles.
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  I would be curious to know about long term retention rather than performance in a class or on a test.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  Wouldn't that make Grade 12 18 ~ 19 years of age? Has the school age been moved up a year? I vaguely remember the oldest kids in high school being 18.
  - psutor 5y ago
    Don't know if parent has been edited to correct something, but: 9: 14-15 10: 15-16 11: 16-17 12: 17-18
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - nemothekid 5y ago
      Ah that's right. I should have just written in out rather than just adding 4.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        At the end of your freshmen year, you have 3 years until the send of your senior year. See, Algebra is useful for something.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    If you turn 15 in 9th grade, you will turn 18 in 12th grade.
- bko 5y ago
  > The students with a delayed introduction caught up so quickly that the delay didn’t matter Yes and there are some kids that act up or learn to hate education and the system for being forced into what amounts to remedial classes. Sometimes the brightest children are the most difficult precisely because they're not being challenged. The ideal would be to have every student learn at their own pace. Some children could comprehend algebra in 8th grade, others may never fully comprehend it. Obviously that's impossible at scale. So the best we can do is to separate kids based on ability and interest. Some children can grasp more advanced concepts at an earlier age, while others struggle. That's why generally in schools we have standard classes, special education and gifted classes. The best schools separate it even further offering additional lessons or tutoring to children that are especially curious or require more work. Everyone benefits. This is common sense. There's no such thing as "appropriate topics" for an age. It's all child specific.
  - 542458 5y ago
    Gifted programs do very little or nothing as far as most studies can tell. Any gains in scores are very small, and they don’t appear to make any meaningful difference in student engagement or motivation. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737211008919 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737211008919 https://www.nber.org/papers/w17089 https://www.nber.org/papers/w17089 These programs are relatively expensive, and there’s a strong argument the gifted programs should be overhauled, or that the money could be better spent elsewhere.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - readams 5y ago
      Gifted programs aren't the same thing as tracking kids into more advanced math classes. A gifted program is where you take some kids aside and teach them some random extra stuff, at the end of the day they're still in the regular classes with the other kids also and don't really have a chance to go any faster.
ldiracdelta 5y ago
Take the grade and add 5. We generally start Kindergarten at 5 ( kinda grade 0 ).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bigger_cheese 5y ago
My vague memories of my Australian High school math curriculum (year 7 to 12) was something like this, I went to high school from 1997 to 2002. Year 7 was geometry focused, Pythagoras theorem a lot of graphing things with protractors compasses etc. Calculating angles from parallel lines stuff like that. Year 8 was much more algebra centric quadradic formula, simultaneous equations, expansion of brackets. Year 9 was Trigonometry I remember there was a lot of 3d shapes and volumes. Volume of spheres, cones, pyramids etc. Year 10 was Conic sections circles Ellipsis Parabolas hyperbola etc a lot of graphing again and more advanced trig. In Year 11 and 12 I took the most advanced of the math streams I had two math classes. My other courses were Physics, Chemistry, Biology and English So math was a third of my course load, more if you counted physics which was highly math based as well. Year 11 One class was Calculus focused, limits, fundamental theorem, basic derivatives and simple integration (Simpson's rule and stuff like that). The other class was linear algebra, vecrors, dot and cross products basic matrix manipulation and matrix transformation - reflectons skew etc. Year 12 We covered parametric calculus, complex numbers more advanced integration and derivatives (Chain rule, substitutions etc). I vaguely remember we covered a bit of hyperbolic functions (cosh, sinh etc). The other course was statistics and probability as well things like sequences and series, stuff like binomial theorem. I studied Engineering at uni and my first year university math was pretty much a repeat of year 11 and 12 math but a bit more in depth.

eftychis 5y ago

U.S. is the only country I know that considers algebra advanced. It's fundamental in the rest of the world.

FormerBandmate 5y ago
America has absolutely shit-tier education for 80% of the population, and woke people want to make the other 20% also shit to lead to “equity”. Ironically, white parents being able to get around this and black parents not knowing how is the main cause of racial disparities today
ralusek 5y ago
They don't, this person is not a reliable source.

Eelongate 5y ago

> This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. I sincerely hope you're not serious about this. I took algebra in 7th grade and I was considered a remedial student with habitually poor grades. If you're telling me I was actually 2 years advanced by present standards, then the situation in California must be deteriorating severely. For reference, this was in an underfunded rural American public school. I was 12.

RandallBrown 5y ago
I took algebra in 7th grade as well, but it was considered advanced by 2 years. It was normal to take algebra in 9th grade. I went to an okay high school in a medium sized city in Michigan. That was about 20 years ago.
function_seven 5y ago
When I was in 5th grade, I was put into the advanced math class. We graphed equations, learned y=mx+b, slopes, etc. All the basic concepts that are introduced in Algebra 1. When I was in 7th grade, we were taught "what a negative number is." That entire year was a complete and utter waste. But fortunately, 8th grade offered Algebra where I could get back on track. This was 30 years ago, in California. Public school math standards are a joke here, and apparently getting even worse.
bko 5y ago
I don't know what to tell you. That's the state of the country. But hey, at least they're honest about why they're doing it: > San Francisco pioneered key aspects of the new approach, opting in 2014 to delay algebra instruction until 9th grade and to push advanced mathematics courses until at least after 10th grade as a means of promoting equity. The school failed the most vulnerable children by objective measures, so they're just trying to get rid of those measures entirely.
- nimish 5y ago
  Yep it seems like the "equitable" solution to failing children is to simply redefine success. Really, truly worrying that instead of focusing resources to help kids improve and overcome a challenge the answer is to remove the challenge instead.

vntx 5y ago

Indeed. A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. It’s a good thing the US can import talent because California’s students are being trained to be cognitively lazy. How will these children fare in a society that is getting more technologically advanced, dynamic and complex by the day without the problem solving tools to handle it? I can’t wait to find out.

throwvirtever 5y ago
> A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. I was under the impression that (actual) communist educational systems were geared predominantly toward the most advanced students, rather than the other way around. Cranking out prizewinning physicists, mathematicians, and chess grand-masters at a somewhat greater than expected rate.
- anthk 5y ago
  Spivak. Heck, even Yakov Perelman. Recreational Math books that could make American teens cry over themselves.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  "Educational communism" in that it seeks to eliminate inequality (in education) by reducing everyone to zero, just as communism sought to eliminate inequality (in wealth) by reducing everyone to zero. Not "educational communism" in the sense of educational systems modeled on those of communist countries. The analogy is from "if I can't afford a car, then nobody should be allowed to have a car" to "if I can't understand algebra, then nobody should be allowed to learn algebra".
  - vntx 5y ago
    Exactly. I have no idea how people can’t differentiate between educational communism and education systems that were implemented in communist states. Was my wording too confusing?
- vntx 5y ago

giantg2 5y ago

"This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children." Seriously? Basic algebra was like 7th or 8th grade for me.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jvanderbot 5y ago

In the USA, we fight fires by turning off smoke alarms.

tn13 5y ago

This will make life even worse for the marginalized students as well off students will have parents or other sources of learning algebra.

nicoburns 5y ago

It has everything to do with Algebra, because Algebra is only considered advanced because it's not taught until later. Primary school children are perfectly capable of doing algebra as shown by many other countries that teach much more "pure maths" in schools.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]