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Europe must ban Bitcoin mining to hit the 1.5C Paris climate goal, says Sweden
- AtlasBarfed 5y agoIt would be more interesting to say you must run large-scale bitcoin farms off of 100% renewables. Or nuclear. But how would this be enforced?
- kevingadd 5y agoIf you're using up renewables that would be used by other energy consumers, you've probably just pushed a bunch of them onto non-renewables. Is that actually good? Maybe some % (20%?) of those customers will simply opt not to do whatever power-consuming thing they were going to do, but the rest...
- bradwood 5y agoYeah. But most BTC miners are energy buyers of last resort. Sucking up the dregs at the cheapest possible price. They aren't "using up" renewables. In fact, often it's this consumption that makes the renewable enterprises viable.
- t0suj4 5y agoI've heard that some bitcoin miners get started when there is an oversupply of energy to burn the excess power. I think this is the direction bitcoin mining could take.
- Yizahi 5y agoSure, you can start mining when there is an oversupply of energy. But why would you ever stop mining? Idle mining is a waste of money, so it will be running 24/7, and everyone else will need to conform and change their energy usage.
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- inter_netuser 5y ago70% of Bitcoin mining is apparently already renewables, way ahead of most of the other industries.
- King-Aaron 5y agoSource?
- Asraelite 5y agoIt's nice to see that this is about proof of work mining specifically, as opposed to the blanket ban on all cryptocurrencies with environmental concerns being used as a thinly veiled excuse that we're seeing in some places.
- version_five 5y agoI oppose carbon taxes (I don't want to get into that here); I also think bitcoin is stupid. But I see this kind of headline as an argument for a carbon tax. Trying to ban specific things is a silly political game of whack-a-mole - creating an exhaustive list of "bad" things is impossible and also overreach into telling people what to do. The better way (and I realize this is beating a dead horse) is to have the price reflect the externalities. Let people mine bitcoin or idle their car or whatever other thing they want, just make sure the cost they pay to do it properly reflects the all-in cost of the activity, and try to do it in a way that the poor are not disproportionately disadvantaged (whoops, that's a big part of my opposition).
- wmf 5y agoSo carbon tax and dividend.
- AnonMessiah 5y agoIt sounds like your argument is to make fuel and power more expensive? How does that not disproportionately harm poor communities, and how is that not just a carbon tax with extra steps? EDIT: I'm not trying to be an ass or "Getcha", just trying to see where you're coming from.
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- cromka 5y agoI suppose this could be solved by having non-linear energy pricing. I.e. if you use up to whatever your total consumption should comfortably be as a person, you pay the regular rate. Once you hit what would be considered unrealistic consumption, you pay twice the rate or so.
- derekjdanserl 5y agoMeans testing has never been a positive thing for poor people. I don’t believe you can have capitalism without rampant global warming. We should already understand these dystopian proposals are just asking for failure.
- cinntaile 5y agoTo be clear, Sweden does not say this. The head of the institution responsible for market stability says this. [0] [0] https://www.fi.se/en/about-fi/what-we-do/ https://www.fi.se/en/about-fi/what-we-do/
- jesterson 5y agoThat's very misleading title, Sweden per se can't say anything even it's president says this.
- SkittyDog 5y agoFWIW, I'm a cryptocurrency skeptic, and generally pessimistic about where the world economy is heading for the next decade. I assume crypto's popularity, like the US housing market, is largely an artifact of low interest rates and massive government deficit spending, which I also assume will run into some limits, in the next few years... In other words, I expect crypto to crash hard, and languish for at least a decade. If it does return, it'll be fully co-opted & tamed by governments and Big Finance. So I believe that the carbon footprint issue will resolve itself, relatively soon. I really do hope I'm wrong about where the world economy is heading. It's honestly got me feeling pretty terrified.
- imtringued 5y agoLow interest rates are the result of low inflation and low velocity of money. Housing and crypto are up because land and crypto have no opportunity costs. They are highly speculative even with high interest rates. Also, modern government deficit spending is just plain tax cuts. The government doesn't actually release additional money into the economy. Republicans and democrats don't want Biden's spending packages.
- inter_netuser 5y agoHead of Power Generation at Sweden's government owned energy company thought otherwise: https://twitter.com/ercwl/status/1457114531314995206 https://twitter.com/ercwl/status/1457114531314995206 I'd trust engineers before politicians.
- bellyfullofbac 5y agoThat Twitterer is awfully smug about it... "Lol"-ing all over the place.
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- cormacrelf 5y agoThe argument rests entirely on Sweden having abundant renewable energy, so their use of mining to make their grids more efficient doesn't literally cause emissions. Why would they ban it for themselves, an engineer might ask? The same question is asked every day in different forms in every single climate discussion: why should a state which is ahead of the game in emissions reduction make any further commitment? The answer is so that other states feel pressure to make commitments too. Sweden should ban it and instead focus on selling its apparent excess of renewable energy, because then all the places where cheap fossil fuel is literally getting a full-scale rebirth feel extra guilty. Advanced nations making sacrifices is the only thing that has worked at all so far. I wouldn't expect an engineer to understand that whatsoever.
- nikolay 5y agoShut down this scam already!
- coralreef 5y agoThe Central Bank money printer?
- imtringued 5y agoThe central bank "central bank reserve" printer?
- t0suj4 5y agoIs bitcoin mining really that energy hungry that it overshadows security apparatus needed to enforce fiat? I thought that would be impossible.
- imtringued 5y ago>Is bitcoin mining really that energy hungry that it overshadows security apparatus needed to enforce fiat? If you ignore neoclassical economics then you would notice that all those militaries are protecting land instead of money or capital or even people.
- t0suj4 5y agoIf you ignore neoclassical economy then please explain US involvement in Libya and all of Middle East wars.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 5y agoPeople who argue for cyptocurrency do not seem to care about environmental issues. They will point to some other societal problem and say, "Solve that first." This makes no sense because crypto is just adding a new problem. Whereas before we had one, now we have two. It is like those who argue for "tech" companies. When faced with the threat of regulation they point to other industries and say "Regulate them first". This sort of argument is not at all convincing.