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>Agreed. That's exactly what it seems like. And that sounds like immoral, unjustifiable, sickening hell. That Apple gets to hold all the cards, no one else on t

>Agreed. That's exactly what it seems like. And that sounds like immoral, unjustifiable, sickening hell. That Apple gets to hold all the cards, no one else on the planet gets any say in how a device might be used. I'm not a big proponent of IP, but you're basically saying it is immoral, unjustifiable, and sickening as hell that Apple enforces the rules that Apple wants on Apple products/services, which were created and offered by Apple? Who should be making the rules if not the creator and maintainer of the product/service? Why is using another product/service not an acceptable alternative? I agree with the general direction of your comment, but certainly not with the same voracity that wouldn't allow my own company to create the rules for my own service offerings (within the confines of state/national law).

catlikesshrimp 5y ago
The law works fine when there is no monopoly. But since Apple has 50% of the market share, the law doesn't work well anymore.
- rektide 5y ago
  This and more. I find it beyond farce that Apple & it's adherents chief defense seems to be that there are other people making products that aren't Lawful-Evil to humanity. If Google one day woke up and said, we're just going to try to do what Apple does to it's users, there would be nothing left. This pretense that Apple's behavior is anything but anti-competitive, anti-trust worthy rings so hollow to me. The excuses that there are other places to go completely fail to wash for me. It's as if these folks are saying the Carterphone victory was only won because AT&T was a monopoly. That's not how consumer rights work. That's not a solid enough platform for humanity to remain upright.
- danaris 5y ago
  ...50% of what market?
  - tentacleuno 5y ago
    I assume OP is referring to the fact that Apple has 60% phone market share in the US[0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29325606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29325606
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > But since Apple has 50% of the market share, the law doesn't work well anymore. Apple has 60% of the mobile market in the US[1]. [1] https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-android-dominates-in-china-and-india https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-...
Caligatio 5y ago
Replace "Apple" by any traditional car company and you should immediately become concerned. Shouldn't a car company have absolute, one-sided control over the cars they sell? Like should the car stop working if you agreed to obey the speed limit but then sped? Or stop working if you didn't use their branded fluids?
- lioeters 5y ago
  ..Or the warranty becomes void if you open up the hood of your car and try to repair/replace parts..
- danaris 5y ago
  Except, as I understand it, this case is not about a EULA on the iPhones themselves, but rather on Apple's services. They agreed to the EULA on the services, then, in part, abused their access to those services to hack into other people's iPhones.
  - rektide 5y ago
    The fact that the modern world exists in an corporate-owned, proprietary cloud, versus the era of personal computers & personally-owned systems, is greatly greatly greatly confusing. I don't fully well know how to handle this great confusion. But ultimately, the trend of all rights being reserved by the megacorp is, ultimately, a vulgar anti-human anathema which we must shake off. Humanity must be allowed to pick up our microscopes & magnifying glasses, to peer in, to meddle. No legal contract preventing the natural sciences is ethical nor godly. I have no idea how we do that. Perhaps decoupling the data-processing services from the data-holding entity might be a possible frontier. One could imagine being able to keep their identity, their core systems & datum wherever they want, & to convert Apple into a mere processor of those personal systems. That way we might not know what Apple is doing, but we at least can watch their black box act against us. In general, trying to draw further extenuating circumstances, trying to say "except except except" is simply not ok. The phones we carry are part & parcel to their many services, in this weird conflux of computing. It reduces basic core human integrity to be denied access, to be rebuffed by EULA from understanding & witnessing & probing into these core techno-vessels we navigate about with. These mere technicalities presented, that our homes happen to be located inside Apple data-centers, is to me uninteresting & unimportant in the moral, ethical, humanistic & religious discussion and/or reckoning we have fallen into.
Dylan16807 5y ago
> Who should be making the rules if not the creator and maintainer of the product/service? Many things should be up to them, but many things should be up to the buyer.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
> Who should be making the rules if not the creator and maintainer of the product/service? The customer? Thats the whole point of a market

catlikesshrimp 5y ago

The law works fine when there is no monopoly. But since Apple has 50% of the market share, the law doesn't work well anymore.

rektide 5y ago
This and more. I find it beyond farce that Apple & it's adherents chief defense seems to be that there are other people making products that aren't Lawful-Evil to humanity. If Google one day woke up and said, we're just going to try to do what Apple does to it's users, there would be nothing left. This pretense that Apple's behavior is anything but anti-competitive, anti-trust worthy rings so hollow to me. The excuses that there are other places to go completely fail to wash for me. It's as if these folks are saying the Carterphone victory was only won because AT&T was a monopoly. That's not how consumer rights work. That's not a solid enough platform for humanity to remain upright.
danaris 5y ago
...50% of what market?
- tentacleuno 5y ago
  I assume OP is referring to the fact that Apple has 60% phone market share in the US[0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29325606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29325606
heavyset_go 5y ago
> But since Apple has 50% of the market share, the law doesn't work well anymore. Apple has 60% of the mobile market in the US[1]. [1] https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-android-dominates-in-china-and-india https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-...

Caligatio 5y ago

Replace "Apple" by any traditional car company and you should immediately become concerned. Shouldn't a car company have absolute, one-sided control over the cars they sell? Like should the car stop working if you agreed to obey the speed limit but then sped? Or stop working if you didn't use their branded fluids?

lioeters 5y ago
..Or the warranty becomes void if you open up the hood of your car and try to repair/replace parts..
danaris 5y ago
Except, as I understand it, this case is not about a EULA on the iPhones themselves, but rather on Apple's services. They agreed to the EULA on the services, then, in part, abused their access to those services to hack into other people's iPhones.
- rektide 5y ago
  The fact that the modern world exists in an corporate-owned, proprietary cloud, versus the era of personal computers & personally-owned systems, is greatly greatly greatly confusing. I don't fully well know how to handle this great confusion. But ultimately, the trend of all rights being reserved by the megacorp is, ultimately, a vulgar anti-human anathema which we must shake off. Humanity must be allowed to pick up our microscopes & magnifying glasses, to peer in, to meddle. No legal contract preventing the natural sciences is ethical nor godly. I have no idea how we do that. Perhaps decoupling the data-processing services from the data-holding entity might be a possible frontier. One could imagine being able to keep their identity, their core systems & datum wherever they want, & to convert Apple into a mere processor of those personal systems. That way we might not know what Apple is doing, but we at least can watch their black box act against us. In general, trying to draw further extenuating circumstances, trying to say "except except except" is simply not ok. The phones we carry are part & parcel to their many services, in this weird conflux of computing. It reduces basic core human integrity to be denied access, to be rebuffed by EULA from understanding & witnessing & probing into these core techno-vessels we navigate about with. These mere technicalities presented, that our homes happen to be located inside Apple data-centers, is to me uninteresting & unimportant in the moral, ethical, humanistic & religious discussion and/or reckoning we have fallen into.

Dylan16807 5y ago

> Who should be making the rules if not the creator and maintainer of the product/service? Many things should be up to them, but many things should be up to the buyer.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

> Who should be making the rules if not the creator and maintainer of the product/service? The customer? Thats the whole point of a market