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I want to take the contrarian take to most people in this thread. Sure, lab leak could be true and with all the available evidence, could very well be true but

I want to take the contrarian take to most people in this thread. Sure, lab leak could be true and with all the available evidence, could very well be true but the confirmation of of it being true may have more far reaching domestic and geopolitical ramifications that may do more harm than good. It seems like there's some game theory going on within the political sphere of many western governments in that increasing anti-China sentiment by confirming lab leak could further put us down the path to an eventual confrontation (read: war) with China, in which we lose a lot more. The only thing we gain by admitting to lab leak is the truth but is the truth (that we've pretty much deduced at this point) worth worsening relations not only politically but gives anti-Chinese factions in the west more evidence as a prelude to war?

sharperguy 5y ago
Wasn't the lab in question an internationally funded operation, with many western countries, including the US involved?
foobiekr 5y ago
Yes. It’s pretty caustic to build a society on noble lies like you are proposing.
timeon 5y ago
I do not know, isn't it already perceived that lab-leak or not - Covid is China's fuckup?
- opportune 5y ago
  From my perspective China did an amazing job at handling COVID, it is other countries that fucked up by not taking it seriously - not doing quarantining properly, waiting until domestic spread was out of control to take half-hearted and unenforced measures to slow the spread. In comparison China took quarantining and contact tracing very seriously and was effective at stopping their domestic spread early in the pandemic. You could blame China for most hypotheses for Covid’s origins: lab-leak from gain of function research, unsanitary wet markets, or not following proper cleanliness procedures for field research. But I think those things (besides lab leaks) could have happened in literally any developing country, and most probably would have done even worse at containing it than China. What I don’t think you can blame China for is the virus escaping their country. They would be (rightly) be under a ton of fire from the international community if they had not allowed non-citizens to leave their country at the start of the pandemic.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    China took it so seriously that they imprisoned doctors/whistleblowers that were taking it seriously.
    - trasz 5y ago
      [citation needed]
      - homieg33 5y ago
        https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55963896.amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-559...
        trasz 5y ago
        And where does it say he was imprisoned? (Hint: he wasn’t)
        mensetmanusman 5y ago
        Huh? https://www.fox5ny.com/news/china-sentences-wuhan-whistleblower-to-four-years-in-prison https://www.fox5ny.com/news/china-sentences-wuhan-whistleblo... Typical process: arrest first, threaten you/family, send you back into public with your head down, and if you really make someone mad in the CCP they have a mock trial and imprison you.
        trasz 5y ago
        We are talking about Li Wenliang. He wasn’t arrested, threatened, or imprisoned. He had “a talk”, similar to how NSA had “a talk” with a US YouTuber who apparently was not patriotic enough. The case you are describing is about spreading false news; think Bannon or Alex Jones.
- jyscao 5y ago
  >lab-leak or not - Covid is China's fuckup? If lab leak is confirmed, depending on how deep you want to root out those who are responsible, then much of the virology community from US and those who fund them are equally to blame, if not more. There is no "Chinese Science" or any country-specific brand of science in the world nowadays, there is just Science. And in both methodologies/techniques and funding, much Science leads back to the US.
  - anonAndOn 5y ago
    Wasn't the US just buying access to the results? If you're gonna defuse a bomb regardless, what difference does it make if I give you $20 to send me pics? It's still up to you to take proper safety precautions.
option 5y ago
Millions people died from COVID. It’s true origins is one of the most important question we must answer, however uncomfortable the truth may be. And yes, if there are those responsible, they should face consequences.
- beepbooptheory 5y ago
  Why is it one of the most important questions we must answer?
  - option 5y ago
    You can’t reliably answer “How to prevent X from happening again?” Without first reliably answering “How the hell did X happen?”
    - czzr 5y ago
      I’d like to know the answer of where it came from and I’m open to possibility of it being a lab leak. But actually knowing how it happened is basically irrelevant to the planning we need to do for the next one. There will be future viruses, they could come from many different sources, we need to be prepared irrespective of the source.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jyscao 5y ago
>The only thing we gain by admitting to lab leak is the truth but is the truth (that we've pretty much deduced at this point) worth worsening relations not only politically but gives anti-Chinese factions in the west more evidence as a prelude to war? IMO yes, not because it might give anti-China warhawks a casus belli, but in spite of that. Since the start of this whole ordeal, instead of taking a step back and do some serious introspection about the risks of their research conduct, these misguided virologists and their institutions have doubled down on GoF research. And if that was indeed the ultimate cause triggering the cascade of events leading to the SARS-COV-2 pandemic, which I personally think is the most probable scenario given all the circumstantial and genetic evidence we have, then it is absolutely worth it to prevent another lab leak. The next one might not be as mild as this one.
- i_haz_rabies 5y ago
  I wonder which would realistically be worse... full blown war with China or a real, Black Plague/Spanish Flu (I know, not Spanish) level pandemic? Not disagreeing with you, genuinely just interested in the thought experiment. I guess maybe there's a line after which the level of "bad" is kind of irrelevant anyways.
president 5y ago
We are already in a war with China. Modern warfare is fought with propaganda, economics, and infiltration of institutions. The Chinese call it "Unrestricted Warfare". The fact that most people don't know any of this means we could very well be losing this war.
- SyzygistSix 5y ago
  I would not call it a war. It is a struggle for dominance. The lack of war-like actions makes it not a war.

sharperguy 5y ago

Wasn't the lab in question an internationally funded operation, with many western countries, including the US involved?

foobiekr 5y ago

Yes. It’s pretty caustic to build a society on noble lies like you are proposing.

timeon 5y ago

I do not know, isn't it already perceived that lab-leak or not - Covid is China's fuckup?

opportune 5y ago
From my perspective China did an amazing job at handling COVID, it is other countries that fucked up by not taking it seriously - not doing quarantining properly, waiting until domestic spread was out of control to take half-hearted and unenforced measures to slow the spread. In comparison China took quarantining and contact tracing very seriously and was effective at stopping their domestic spread early in the pandemic. You could blame China for most hypotheses for Covid’s origins: lab-leak from gain of function research, unsanitary wet markets, or not following proper cleanliness procedures for field research. But I think those things (besides lab leaks) could have happened in literally any developing country, and most probably would have done even worse at containing it than China. What I don’t think you can blame China for is the virus escaping their country. They would be (rightly) be under a ton of fire from the international community if they had not allowed non-citizens to leave their country at the start of the pandemic.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  China took it so seriously that they imprisoned doctors/whistleblowers that were taking it seriously.
  - trasz 5y ago
    [citation needed]
    - homieg33 5y ago
      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55963896.amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-559...
      - trasz 5y ago
        And where does it say he was imprisoned? (Hint: he wasn’t)
        mensetmanusman 5y ago
        Huh? https://www.fox5ny.com/news/china-sentences-wuhan-whistleblower-to-four-years-in-prison https://www.fox5ny.com/news/china-sentences-wuhan-whistleblo... Typical process: arrest first, threaten you/family, send you back into public with your head down, and if you really make someone mad in the CCP they have a mock trial and imprison you.
        trasz 5y ago
        We are talking about Li Wenliang. He wasn’t arrested, threatened, or imprisoned. He had “a talk”, similar to how NSA had “a talk” with a US YouTuber who apparently was not patriotic enough. The case you are describing is about spreading false news; think Bannon or Alex Jones.
jyscao 5y ago
>lab-leak or not - Covid is China's fuckup? If lab leak is confirmed, depending on how deep you want to root out those who are responsible, then much of the virology community from US and those who fund them are equally to blame, if not more. There is no "Chinese Science" or any country-specific brand of science in the world nowadays, there is just Science. And in both methodologies/techniques and funding, much Science leads back to the US.
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  Wasn't the US just buying access to the results? If you're gonna defuse a bomb regardless, what difference does it make if I give you $20 to send me pics? It's still up to you to take proper safety precautions.

option 5y ago

Millions people died from COVID. It’s true origins is one of the most important question we must answer, however uncomfortable the truth may be. And yes, if there are those responsible, they should face consequences.

beepbooptheory 5y ago
Why is it one of the most important questions we must answer?
- option 5y ago
  You can’t reliably answer “How to prevent X from happening again?” Without first reliably answering “How the hell did X happen?”
  - czzr 5y ago
    I’d like to know the answer of where it came from and I’m open to possibility of it being a lab leak. But actually knowing how it happened is basically irrelevant to the planning we need to do for the next one. There will be future viruses, they could come from many different sources, we need to be prepared irrespective of the source.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jyscao 5y ago

>The only thing we gain by admitting to lab leak is the truth but is the truth (that we've pretty much deduced at this point) worth worsening relations not only politically but gives anti-Chinese factions in the west more evidence as a prelude to war? IMO yes, not because it might give anti-China warhawks a casus belli, but in spite of that. Since the start of this whole ordeal, instead of taking a step back and do some serious introspection about the risks of their research conduct, these misguided virologists and their institutions have doubled down on GoF research. And if that was indeed the ultimate cause triggering the cascade of events leading to the SARS-COV-2 pandemic, which I personally think is the most probable scenario given all the circumstantial and genetic evidence we have, then it is absolutely worth it to prevent another lab leak. The next one might not be as mild as this one.

i_haz_rabies 5y ago
I wonder which would realistically be worse... full blown war with China or a real, Black Plague/Spanish Flu (I know, not Spanish) level pandemic? Not disagreeing with you, genuinely just interested in the thought experiment. I guess maybe there's a line after which the level of "bad" is kind of irrelevant anyways.

president 5y ago

We are already in a war with China. Modern warfare is fought with propaganda, economics, and infiltration of institutions. The Chinese call it "Unrestricted Warfare". The fact that most people don't know any of this means we could very well be losing this war.

SyzygistSix 5y ago
I would not call it a war. It is a struggle for dominance. The lack of war-like actions makes it not a war.