9 ms·

Wirecutter is a pay-to-play operation. I stopped heeding their recommendations after I discovered that they were aggressively persuing kickbacks and refusing to

Wirecutter is a pay-to-play operation. I stopped heeding their recommendations after I discovered that they were aggressively persuing kickbacks and refusing to review products that do not pay. See https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to-play-model https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to... for example. Also note that wirecutter in their response do not deny this but try to weasel out by claiming that the word 'kickback' was misleading. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/our-response-to-nextdesk/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/our-response-to-nextdesk/ One valid criticism NextDesk raised was our use of the word “kickback” in our business communications, which is a misleading description of the affiliate business model because it implies an illicit transaction. In our company’s early days, we misused the term to describe a straightforward affiliate relationship, but we have since changed how we talk about the affiliate business, which is one we continue to stand behind.

solarkraft 5y ago
Oh shit. I used to consider them to be one of the most reputable sources.
- f0e4c2f7 5y ago
  Oh no! I did as well. Who is the current honest broker of product reviews?
  - mbesto 5y ago
    How about The Strategist?
  - ev1 5y ago
    Anything that contains affiliate, referral, or commission links I do not trust.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      What monetization models do you trust more?
      - solarkraft 5y ago
        I trust publications with product-independent ads and paid articles. Generally these publication shouldn’t profit from promoting a particular product. That can include free samples and any dependence on a manufacturer’s good will. An example for relatively trustworthy reviews would be (German) Stiftung Warentest (“Product Review Foundation”)’s https://test.de https://test.de, you can subscribe to all articles for a monthly fee or buy them individually. No clickbait, no pop-ups, just no-bullshit, user respecting, fairly objective tests.
  - crooked-v 5y ago
    Seems like it's time to go back to Consumer Reports.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - asdff 5y ago
    Complaint threads on reddit probably. I don't have to watch video game reviews anymore at least, I just wait for the community on reddit to explode positively or negatively towards the game developer then I make my purchase or not. If you only went off the puff pieces in game reviews you'd be buying every title to come out. This works for a lot of stuff thats popular on reddit at least. Not sure where else I can find good communities online of people complaining and calling out shortcomings in products.
  - vb6sp6 5y ago
    googling "$product_name sucks" or similar
UI_at_80x24 5y ago
Is there any site that you do use now for recommendations? In the game of capitalism it seems everybody becomes a sell-out.
- pjz 5y ago
  As far as I'm concerned, America's Test Kitchen is the gold standard, with Consumer Reports just a little behind them.
- hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
  Consumer Reports has a long history of subscriber-funded independent reviews. They refuse all advertising, free/discounted items, etc. to prevent conflicts of interest. They review everything from cars and lawnmowers to mattresses and electronics, but depending on what niche of electronics you're looking at they may or may not have the kind of reviews you're looking for. https://www.consumerreports.org https://www.consumerreports.org
  - leetcrew 5y ago
    consumer reports is a great resource when you just want an example of X that isn't a complete lemon. that's not a criticism, most purchases are like that for most people. but if you care about getting a really good X, they're not a great source. most of their buying guides have a lot less detail than Wirecutter's, and of course pale in comparison to dedicated review sites for popular niches. it's unfortunate that you essentially have to trade trustworthiness for detail.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      Consumer Reports has less prose, but much more objective data - in sortable tables. The data is from their labs, where they have domain experts using the scientific method to evaluate products.
  - acomjean 5y ago
    Available in many libraries. They rate products in a bunch of categories using a table and a circle which would be various levels of full color depending on how a product rated. which meant sometimes you wouldn't just go to the highest rated if one part of the product scored lower in a category. Its an interesting data visualization method. Plus the table usually has specs too. https://www.consumerreports.org/consumer-reports/we-put-ourselves-to-the-test/ https://www.consumerreports.org/consumer-reports/we-put-ours...
thesausageking 5y ago
That's a pretty sensationalist article. Wirecutter doesn't hide the fact that they make money off of affiliate fees. Almost all content sites do. Are there better review websites than the Wirecutter? I've found them to be solid and helpful.
- karaterobot 5y ago
  I like RTings, but they only review a limited selection of products. Consumer Reports is not what it used to be, and I always wonder if they're about to go out of business. I'm not aware of anything better, though I'd love to hear other people's recommendations. I have wondered if there is even a way to sustain an organization large enough to review a wide variety of products, and have a business model that does not raise questions about your motives or integrity. I'd guess that such a business would need a lot of people and time to comprehensively review products well, and that costs money. In the Wirecutter model, where they claim to keep their reviews up to date as new products come out, it's kind of a recurring cost, too. But if affiliate links are ethically dubious, and advertisements are even worse, and if not enough people will pay for a subscription to their site, then what is the alternative?
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    > I have wondered if there is even a way to sustain an organization large enough to review a wide variety of products, and have a business model that does not raise questions about your motives or integrity. Costs: {average number of new products released per unit of time} * {cost per product} Revenue: {volume of purchases per unit of time} * {affiliate marketing per product purchased} Advertising is probably difficult, due to the "Buy something other than what we recommend!" issue with advertising on review sites. Although I guess there are options for cross-selling. I can't believe there are many products that makes sense for, without the Consumer Reports "Pay for the report" model. And even with it, the economics seem dubious, and I feel like you'd always be barely getting by.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
kfreds 5y ago
> I stopped heeding their recommendations after I discovered that they were aggressively persuing kickbacks and refusing to review products that do not pay. Let me offer a counterexample - VPN services. They didn’t get a cent from Mullvad, which they declared the winner. Number two was IVPN, which also doesn’t have an affiliate program. The review: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-vpn-service/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-vpn-service/
- howinteresting 5y ago
  While my experience with Wirecutter has been decidedly mixed, Mullvad really does seem to be the best VPN around.
  - kfreds 5y ago
    Thank you!
    - howinteresting 5y ago
      Ahh I didn't realize you were one of the founders of Mullvad! Thanks for all your work :)
- is_true 5y ago
  Why do you think they didn't get money from them?
  - kfreds 5y ago
    Mullvad: I know it for a fact, because I'm one of the founders. IVPN: I don't know it, but I've met Nick Pestell (the founder) several times, and he's told me they don't pay for reviews. I trust him.
    - elliekelly 5y ago
      I hope you enjoy the random cards of cash I send every month! I quite enjoy your product!
donmcronald 5y ago
The whole affiliate marketing space is a dirty business. Saying affiliate relationship is just softer language for kickback IMO. The incentives are the same. I think all reviews with affiliate links should have to be labeled as paid promotion. This [1] sleepopolis saga is an amazing read if you’ve never seen it. 1. https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-blogg...
- noneeeed 5y ago
  We need a new mattress, after about half an hour of searching for reviews I realised that there was no way I was going to find any genuinely honest reviews anywhere. Search results are packed with full-time mattress review sites that are all clearly getting affiliate payments of some form or other, many of them seem to have the same content. There might be some honest ones out there, but they are drowned out by all the ones that are clearly just affiliat link farms.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    Maybe we should have like… a place you can go feel them in person. Like a building where there would be a few of each model and you can test them BEFORE you buy one? /s. Mattress stores and mattress shopping is the fucking worst. Ultra scammy and there is a clear reason that the industry was turned upside down once someone figured out you can fit a mattress in a box and ship it. The last time I went mattress shopping, I was told by serious and expert sleep professionals [sic] that I should get a mattress with embedded diamond particles because it’ll help keep me cool, and silver thread at the seams that will be more hygienic. For what it’s worth, I took a chance on a mattress and love it. I have never slept somewhere I like better. It’s an Avacado, but buy whatever you can that has a real return policy and try it out.
    - noneeeed 5y ago
      Yep! I don't know what it is about mattresses specifically, but every part of the industry from highstreet shops to the online products all make me feel like I'm being ripped off in a way that no other product does. Bed salesmen are worse than car salesmen.
Fission 5y ago
I wanted to link to an older comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24714286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24714286) I made on this topic, because I keep on seeing this article. It's turned out to be one of my most upvoted comments on HN, to my genuine surprise. Reproduction: I keep on seeing this link pop up. Since no one is replying, I'd like to point out that I think the Wirecutter is actually in the right here. Another HN member did some investigation and found that Xdesk is stretching things: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22144078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22144078 In general, having been able to talk with some of the people there, I'm convinced that WC was focused first and foremost on truth-seeking and quality at this point in their life (pre-acquisition) — however, the consensus seems to have been that after the NYT acquired them, they started becoming more incentivized to grow revenue, and started to jump the shark.
filmgirlcw 5y ago
It's worth noting that this whole thing is from 2013/2014. Since then, Wirecutter has been sold to the New York Times and has completely different management. I don't personally think Brian Lam did what Nextdesk accused him of (disclosure: I've met Lam socially), but I also understand why it seems improper to have that kind of outreach. Based on my personal knowledge of many people who have worked at Wirecutter past and present, I don't believe they are a pay to play operation at all. Regardless, that has no bearing on whether or not their employees are owed a fair labor contract or not.
whywhathow1990 5y ago
You are late to the party. There was a thread a while ago debunking some of the misinformation in that case https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22141719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22141719
gaws 5y ago
What does this have to do with The Wirecutter employees trying to get a fair contract with The Times? > Also note that wirecutter in their response do not deny this but try to weasel out by claiming that the word 'kickback' was misleading. They've been getting a kickback from affiliated links for years.

solarkraft 5y ago

Oh shit. I used to consider them to be one of the most reputable sources.

f0e4c2f7 5y ago
Oh no! I did as well. Who is the current honest broker of product reviews?
- mbesto 5y ago
  How about The Strategist?
- ev1 5y ago
  Anything that contains affiliate, referral, or commission links I do not trust.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    What monetization models do you trust more?
    - solarkraft 5y ago
      I trust publications with product-independent ads and paid articles. Generally these publication shouldn’t profit from promoting a particular product. That can include free samples and any dependence on a manufacturer’s good will. An example for relatively trustworthy reviews would be (German) Stiftung Warentest (“Product Review Foundation”)’s https://test.de https://test.de, you can subscribe to all articles for a monthly fee or buy them individually. No clickbait, no pop-ups, just no-bullshit, user respecting, fairly objective tests.
- crooked-v 5y ago
  Seems like it's time to go back to Consumer Reports.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- asdff 5y ago
  Complaint threads on reddit probably. I don't have to watch video game reviews anymore at least, I just wait for the community on reddit to explode positively or negatively towards the game developer then I make my purchase or not. If you only went off the puff pieces in game reviews you'd be buying every title to come out. This works for a lot of stuff thats popular on reddit at least. Not sure where else I can find good communities online of people complaining and calling out shortcomings in products.
- vb6sp6 5y ago
  googling "$product_name sucks" or similar

UI_at_80x24 5y ago

Is there any site that you do use now for recommendations? In the game of capitalism it seems everybody becomes a sell-out.

pjz 5y ago
As far as I'm concerned, America's Test Kitchen is the gold standard, with Consumer Reports just a little behind them.
hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
Consumer Reports has a long history of subscriber-funded independent reviews. They refuse all advertising, free/discounted items, etc. to prevent conflicts of interest. They review everything from cars and lawnmowers to mattresses and electronics, but depending on what niche of electronics you're looking at they may or may not have the kind of reviews you're looking for. https://www.consumerreports.org https://www.consumerreports.org
- leetcrew 5y ago
  consumer reports is a great resource when you just want an example of X that isn't a complete lemon. that's not a criticism, most purchases are like that for most people. but if you care about getting a really good X, they're not a great source. most of their buying guides have a lot less detail than Wirecutter's, and of course pale in comparison to dedicated review sites for popular niches. it's unfortunate that you essentially have to trade trustworthiness for detail.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Consumer Reports has less prose, but much more objective data - in sortable tables. The data is from their labs, where they have domain experts using the scientific method to evaluate products.
- acomjean 5y ago
  Available in many libraries. They rate products in a bunch of categories using a table and a circle which would be various levels of full color depending on how a product rated. which meant sometimes you wouldn't just go to the highest rated if one part of the product scored lower in a category. Its an interesting data visualization method. Plus the table usually has specs too. https://www.consumerreports.org/consumer-reports/we-put-ourselves-to-the-test/ https://www.consumerreports.org/consumer-reports/we-put-ours...

thesausageking 5y ago

That's a pretty sensationalist article. Wirecutter doesn't hide the fact that they make money off of affiliate fees. Almost all content sites do. Are there better review websites than the Wirecutter? I've found them to be solid and helpful.

karaterobot 5y ago
I like RTings, but they only review a limited selection of products. Consumer Reports is not what it used to be, and I always wonder if they're about to go out of business. I'm not aware of anything better, though I'd love to hear other people's recommendations. I have wondered if there is even a way to sustain an organization large enough to review a wide variety of products, and have a business model that does not raise questions about your motives or integrity. I'd guess that such a business would need a lot of people and time to comprehensively review products well, and that costs money. In the Wirecutter model, where they claim to keep their reviews up to date as new products come out, it's kind of a recurring cost, too. But if affiliate links are ethically dubious, and advertisements are even worse, and if not enough people will pay for a subscription to their site, then what is the alternative?
- ethbr0 5y ago
  > I have wondered if there is even a way to sustain an organization large enough to review a wide variety of products, and have a business model that does not raise questions about your motives or integrity. Costs: {average number of new products released per unit of time} * {cost per product} Revenue: {volume of purchases per unit of time} * {affiliate marketing per product purchased} Advertising is probably difficult, due to the "Buy something other than what we recommend!" issue with advertising on review sites. Although I guess there are options for cross-selling. I can't believe there are many products that makes sense for, without the Consumer Reports "Pay for the report" model. And even with it, the economics seem dubious, and I feel like you'd always be barely getting by.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

kfreds 5y ago

> I stopped heeding their recommendations after I discovered that they were aggressively persuing kickbacks and refusing to review products that do not pay. Let me offer a counterexample - VPN services. They didn’t get a cent from Mullvad, which they declared the winner. Number two was IVPN, which also doesn’t have an affiliate program. The review: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-vpn-service/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-vpn-service/

howinteresting 5y ago
While my experience with Wirecutter has been decidedly mixed, Mullvad really does seem to be the best VPN around.
- kfreds 5y ago
  Thank you!
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    Ahh I didn't realize you were one of the founders of Mullvad! Thanks for all your work :)
is_true 5y ago
Why do you think they didn't get money from them?
- kfreds 5y ago
  Mullvad: I know it for a fact, because I'm one of the founders. IVPN: I don't know it, but I've met Nick Pestell (the founder) several times, and he's told me they don't pay for reviews. I trust him.
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    I hope you enjoy the random cards of cash I send every month! I quite enjoy your product!

donmcronald 5y ago

The whole affiliate marketing space is a dirty business. Saying affiliate relationship is just softer language for kickback IMO. The incentives are the same. I think all reviews with affiliate links should have to be labeled as paid promotion. This [1] sleepopolis saga is an amazing read if you’ve never seen it. 1. https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-blogg...

noneeeed 5y ago
We need a new mattress, after about half an hour of searching for reviews I realised that there was no way I was going to find any genuinely honest reviews anywhere. Search results are packed with full-time mattress review sites that are all clearly getting affiliate payments of some form or other, many of them seem to have the same content. There might be some honest ones out there, but they are drowned out by all the ones that are clearly just affiliat link farms.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  Maybe we should have like… a place you can go feel them in person. Like a building where there would be a few of each model and you can test them BEFORE you buy one? /s. Mattress stores and mattress shopping is the fucking worst. Ultra scammy and there is a clear reason that the industry was turned upside down once someone figured out you can fit a mattress in a box and ship it. The last time I went mattress shopping, I was told by serious and expert sleep professionals [sic] that I should get a mattress with embedded diamond particles because it’ll help keep me cool, and silver thread at the seams that will be more hygienic. For what it’s worth, I took a chance on a mattress and love it. I have never slept somewhere I like better. It’s an Avacado, but buy whatever you can that has a real return policy and try it out.
  - noneeeed 5y ago
    Yep! I don't know what it is about mattresses specifically, but every part of the industry from highstreet shops to the online products all make me feel like I'm being ripped off in a way that no other product does. Bed salesmen are worse than car salesmen.

Fission 5y ago

I wanted to link to an older comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24714286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24714286) I made on this topic, because I keep on seeing this article. It's turned out to be one of my most upvoted comments on HN, to my genuine surprise. Reproduction: I keep on seeing this link pop up. Since no one is replying, I'd like to point out that I think the Wirecutter is actually in the right here. Another HN member did some investigation and found that Xdesk is stretching things: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22144078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22144078 In general, having been able to talk with some of the people there, I'm convinced that WC was focused first and foremost on truth-seeking and quality at this point in their life (pre-acquisition) — however, the consensus seems to have been that after the NYT acquired them, they started becoming more incentivized to grow revenue, and started to jump the shark.

filmgirlcw 5y ago

It's worth noting that this whole thing is from 2013/2014. Since then, Wirecutter has been sold to the New York Times and has completely different management. I don't personally think Brian Lam did what Nextdesk accused him of (disclosure: I've met Lam socially), but I also understand why it seems improper to have that kind of outreach. Based on my personal knowledge of many people who have worked at Wirecutter past and present, I don't believe they are a pay to play operation at all. Regardless, that has no bearing on whether or not their employees are owed a fair labor contract or not.

whywhathow1990 5y ago

You are late to the party. There was a thread a while ago debunking some of the misinformation in that case https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22141719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22141719

gaws 5y ago

What does this have to do with The Wirecutter employees trying to get a fair contract with The Times? > Also note that wirecutter in their response do not deny this but try to weasel out by claiming that the word 'kickback' was misleading. They've been getting a kickback from affiliated links for years.