5 ms·

The High Cost of Men's Loneliness

53 points by wyrm 5y ago

PaulHoule 5y ago
I know the cost. What do we do about it?
- markdoubleyou 5y ago
  Australia has "Men's Sheds" that (try to) address this problem. The idea is slowly making its way into other countries but probably won't take off until there's better funding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_shed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_shed
- strikelaserclaw 5y ago
  It is up to the individual to realize that social relationships are something that need tending to and that it is an investment and not a waste of our resources. It is also important to realize that social proxies like social media do not really replace real human interaction and connection even though at times it can feel like they do. In the past we lived in a community, we grew up in one place, we got a job in that place, we had friends or at least people who knew us all around us, due to the nature of the industrial modern world, we frequently move for opportunities, have ample choice in who to associate with and all that causes a need to put more effort into relationships, not less, yet for some reason most of us still have the mindset of relationships will continue naturally even without tending to. What to do about is go out and put effort to have more physical relationships, go out with friends and play a sport, drink beer, watch a movie, be open if your friends initiate and invite you somewhere, do the same once in a while. Take an interest in their lives and also be willing to share a bit about yours. I move around frequently but i always made good friends at work, i always invite people to go out for drinks and a good number respond, we always bond over drinks and this then turns into a friendship. You won't believe the amount of people I've met who feel lonely but don't initiate, don't come to events that are initiated on their behalf for whatever reason because the event is on a Tuesday and thats the day they have their weekly call of duty round, basically people who don't want to make any adjustments to their life to get out there and hopefully make a connection.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    You're right but I see trouble operationalizing it. (1) I reached out to a guy who was interested in sci-fi movies and TV to watch at my house, he didn't do it, I ended up talking to him in between a suicide attempt and a suicide completion and didn't have the courage to speak up but I don't know if it would have gotten through. (2) The centering around alcohol is a problem. My doc doesn't want me drinking. Other people are recovered from alcohol addiction and can't be around other people who are drinking. (3) It is easy to say maintain but a lot of people have nothing to maintain and really need a fast answer to build up a circle of friends. (4) Intergenerational issues. People 10 years older than me just seem to want to drive buicks and go to the casino. I think I can relate to younger people better but maybe I am kidding myself. (5) The role of women in all this. Sometimes I find myself trying to avoid "sausage party" events but maybe that's a mistake. Hate to be the guy with objections.
    - lystlaunt 5y ago
      I would operationalize it by simplifying it to habits: -Avoid declining invitations to go out, unless it's really necessary -Try to find other people who don't like drinking. Most of my work colleagues don't drink, and a couple old high school friends who I see occasionally also don't drink. Day activities, like lunch, are pretty good. -Martial arts is a good way to meet other guys. Volunteering, especially if you're in a unique role that interacts with lots of other people (e.g. help desk), is helpful. -Don't worry about age so much after a certain age. Lots of people like to hang out with others who are fun to hang out with, with age being not as relevant. -Try for a mix of both. In college, most of my organizational activities had majority women by a significant (writing, etc.; though I never dated anyone there), but I actually missed out with guys-only events. I didn't realize it until I met up with some old high school friends, and felt free to talk about relationships with them. I'm also sorry to hear about your friend. It was really kind of you to reach out to him; a lot of people don't when they see people are struggling. You were there and available for him, which is rare and can help so much.
    - tsol 5y ago
      >(5) The role of women in all this. Sometimes I find myself trying to avoid "sausage party" events but maybe that's a mistake. (EDIT: I should mention I'm somewhat exaggerating the differences to highlight them in this post) As someone who's exposed to different cultures fairly regularly(im Indian American, and a Muslim) I feel this one is a odd American cultural quirk. Among many of my friends of a similar cultural background(Muslims, or just Indians) to me I see a large value placed on "chilling with your bros". It's generally a very open space, where even the quiet awkward member of the group has no reason to be judged. And it happens pretty often-- the reason for doing it is because that's what people do. But I find with my Caucasian American friends there usually has to be a _reason_ for men to hang out. I don't know if it's a culture just pushes the pursuit of women a little too hard, or fear of something. Even with the extroverts, you have to go to a bar, or a show or something. With my other friends we'll go out and eat, or even just sit on someone's couch and make jokes if there's nothing else to. There isn't as much friction. Keeping friends is easy. I don't mean any of this in a "superior" way-- in fact I feel like with every generation my culture grows more like the larger American culture-- a little more awkward and formal. So I'm not saying we have all the answers, these are just observations I've made. To me it feels like Americans used to really value "man time"-- going out and BBQing or going camping just to spend time with other men-- isn't really valued anymore. Sometimes it's even looked down upon as excessively masculine and unnecessary, or even gay(I've felt this when i told a friend who moved away that I missed him and made a joke about me being gay-- not saying it's universal). I'd say articles like this reimforce the value of men hanging out with men just to have someone who gets you
- lystlaunt 5y ago
  It's a hard problem because people's individual psychologies are so different; more concretely, what works for one person might not for another. Here's what worked for me. In terms of thoughts, I rejected the conditioning (maybe even the instinct) that I need to have lots of friends, or even a close friend, to be happy. I still dress nice and take care of myself, but I'm happier with solitary activities like reading, where I can still learn from other people. I also don't hesitate to do typical group activities by myself sometimes (e.g. grabbing a nice dinner or going to the movies). I also do see people at martial arts, though it's less of a direct friendship with them. For a population instead of an individual, I would generally recommend being okay with being solitary and staying connected by working on projects or anything related to physical fitness without expecting friendships. I think it's hard to have a best friend for most people as you get older, anyways; I believe it's better for a significant other to be a close confidant in that sense.
eigengrau5150 5y ago
A cat is fine, too.
Mirioron 5y ago
Does this apply to people who play video games? If you play social games like MMOs you're pretty much forced to interact with others. Does that help in any way combat the issues?
- NetOpWibby 5y ago
  I think it does help. I play Fortnite at least once a week with one of my buddies and we catch up on life while playing. We’re also in a group chat and share links and updates there. My wife told me recently that she was jealous of my friendships because of how often we chat. Meanwhile, she’s the more social one and talks on the phone a helluva lot more than I do. Like the article suggested, she definitely manages all the familial relationships with couple friends and keeps in touch with those folks. I see ‘em when I see ‘em LOL (she’s also on Facebook, I’m not). I wouldn’t mind making new IRL friends but I simply do not care. If that happens, great. My small circle of friends I’ve known for at least a decade is enough for me.
- haunter 5y ago
  > If you play social games like MMOs you're pretty much forced to interact with others That maybe was the case with the oldschool MMOs (Everquest for example) where you could do not do anything alone but nowdays you can pretty much play them as a single player game. FFXIV, WoW, GW2 etc. are incredibly solo friendly. You don't even need to join a guild or such there is automated matchmaking for most group content. You can play these games without ever interacting with any other players. And a lot of people do that because they care more about the world or story or things that don't need other players (see crafting, gathering etc.) Heck even FFXI which soon will be 20 years old is solo friendly thanks to the NPC party members they introduced some years ago.
  - claudiawerner 5y ago
    Not to mention the 'lobby' system in many games these days; unless you make friends by chance with people already playing online games, you effectively play with random people on your team, and random people on the other team. Gone are the days where games in which you can join a regular server, where you see your friends, join a clan, etc. are the norm. Now you have to send friend requests to people and hope they accept, and even then, you can't play against your friends in casual play, only with them. Recently I showed my little brother of an online FPS game from 2003, showing someone at a high skill level doing the map objective without help. The player killed everyone in sight with ease. My brother commented, "How the hell was that guy placed in a lobby with all these bad players?". To him, the only way that online FPS games work is that you queue in a lobby to be placed with people of a similar skill level. It didn't occur to him that you used to be able to join a server at a particular IP address and play with regulars and crack jokes with people you've known for years.
gr1zzlybe4r 5y ago
I've recently started opening up to more people about this in my personal life. Like many others on here, I've worked remote now since March 2020, and the lack of interpersonal interaction with others during my work days has taken a great personal toll. I still go out with my significant other and see other people as well when we go out, but I've found it really hard to get meaning out of work when I don't see people. That, coupled with a move to a new city (to be closer to outdoor activities), has meant that I've struggled with feelings of loneliness. I think part of the problem is that admitting this type of feeling is seen as personal weakness in men but perfectly acceptable for a woman to talk about. When men say they're lonely, it's often hard to find other men to talk about it with. I know that I'll get out of it because I'm pretty extroverted, but just thought I'd give my personal (and recent) experience with what this article is talking about.
- lystlaunt 5y ago
  This is interesting to read as I'm pretty introverted, so I've taken the opposite approach. I avoid talking about it because I expect to be treated differently in a negative way by work colleagues if I admit it, and I don't know many people close enough outside of a work context to speak about it. My approach, which is fairly effective at causing happiness, is to start by finding joy in solitary activities, versus seeking friends. I really like reading classic books, film, and music. I don't expect to make a close friend like I did in my youth, and I also prefer not to, because I felt like my former best friend took advantage of the fact that I wouldn't have any close connections left if he left, and treated me in a way that made my life worse for a while until I ended things. So, I figure there are worse things than being alone. If anything, I'm treat relationships with significant others as best friend relationships with intimacy. Otherwise, I have healthy working relationships work colleagues, but I don't expect to make friends like in high school, and I'm usually pretty happy trying to better myself mostly on my own. Charles Bukowski's poem comes to mind: there are worse things than being alone but it often takes decades to realize this and most often when you do it's too late and there's nothing worse than too late
- entropyie 5y ago
  Renting a coworking desk helped my morale after a year of working at home. Even a cafe once a week could help.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nunez 5y ago
This article is interesting. I don’t think the loneliness that OP is talking about here is universally bad. I don’t have any close friends. I have a social media presence, but aside from Reddit (with which I only use the comments features), I don’t use those platforms at all. I’ve never been unhappy with this arrangement though; in fact, I love my time alone. However, I have heaps of acquaintances (i.e. folks in my contacts list that I don’t call or see often) and am social when I go out. I know how to strike up conversation and know how to have and be a good time. I enjoy these activities, but doing without doesn’t impact me negatively unless I spend many many months not doing that.
idinnoaname 5y ago
Interestingly enough there are a lot of comments in this thread that seemingly support the authors statements.

53 points by wyrm 5y ago

PaulHoule 5y ago

I know the cost. What do we do about it?

markdoubleyou 5y ago
Australia has "Men's Sheds" that (try to) address this problem. The idea is slowly making its way into other countries but probably won't take off until there's better funding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_shed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_shed
strikelaserclaw 5y ago
It is up to the individual to realize that social relationships are something that need tending to and that it is an investment and not a waste of our resources. It is also important to realize that social proxies like social media do not really replace real human interaction and connection even though at times it can feel like they do. In the past we lived in a community, we grew up in one place, we got a job in that place, we had friends or at least people who knew us all around us, due to the nature of the industrial modern world, we frequently move for opportunities, have ample choice in who to associate with and all that causes a need to put more effort into relationships, not less, yet for some reason most of us still have the mindset of relationships will continue naturally even without tending to. What to do about is go out and put effort to have more physical relationships, go out with friends and play a sport, drink beer, watch a movie, be open if your friends initiate and invite you somewhere, do the same once in a while. Take an interest in their lives and also be willing to share a bit about yours. I move around frequently but i always made good friends at work, i always invite people to go out for drinks and a good number respond, we always bond over drinks and this then turns into a friendship. You won't believe the amount of people I've met who feel lonely but don't initiate, don't come to events that are initiated on their behalf for whatever reason because the event is on a Tuesday and thats the day they have their weekly call of duty round, basically people who don't want to make any adjustments to their life to get out there and hopefully make a connection.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  You're right but I see trouble operationalizing it. (1) I reached out to a guy who was interested in sci-fi movies and TV to watch at my house, he didn't do it, I ended up talking to him in between a suicide attempt and a suicide completion and didn't have the courage to speak up but I don't know if it would have gotten through. (2) The centering around alcohol is a problem. My doc doesn't want me drinking. Other people are recovered from alcohol addiction and can't be around other people who are drinking. (3) It is easy to say maintain but a lot of people have nothing to maintain and really need a fast answer to build up a circle of friends. (4) Intergenerational issues. People 10 years older than me just seem to want to drive buicks and go to the casino. I think I can relate to younger people better but maybe I am kidding myself. (5) The role of women in all this. Sometimes I find myself trying to avoid "sausage party" events but maybe that's a mistake. Hate to be the guy with objections.
  - lystlaunt 5y ago
    I would operationalize it by simplifying it to habits: -Avoid declining invitations to go out, unless it's really necessary -Try to find other people who don't like drinking. Most of my work colleagues don't drink, and a couple old high school friends who I see occasionally also don't drink. Day activities, like lunch, are pretty good. -Martial arts is a good way to meet other guys. Volunteering, especially if you're in a unique role that interacts with lots of other people (e.g. help desk), is helpful. -Don't worry about age so much after a certain age. Lots of people like to hang out with others who are fun to hang out with, with age being not as relevant. -Try for a mix of both. In college, most of my organizational activities had majority women by a significant (writing, etc.; though I never dated anyone there), but I actually missed out with guys-only events. I didn't realize it until I met up with some old high school friends, and felt free to talk about relationships with them. I'm also sorry to hear about your friend. It was really kind of you to reach out to him; a lot of people don't when they see people are struggling. You were there and available for him, which is rare and can help so much.
  - tsol 5y ago
    >(5) The role of women in all this. Sometimes I find myself trying to avoid "sausage party" events but maybe that's a mistake. (EDIT: I should mention I'm somewhat exaggerating the differences to highlight them in this post) As someone who's exposed to different cultures fairly regularly(im Indian American, and a Muslim) I feel this one is a odd American cultural quirk. Among many of my friends of a similar cultural background(Muslims, or just Indians) to me I see a large value placed on "chilling with your bros". It's generally a very open space, where even the quiet awkward member of the group has no reason to be judged. And it happens pretty often-- the reason for doing it is because that's what people do. But I find with my Caucasian American friends there usually has to be a _reason_ for men to hang out. I don't know if it's a culture just pushes the pursuit of women a little too hard, or fear of something. Even with the extroverts, you have to go to a bar, or a show or something. With my other friends we'll go out and eat, or even just sit on someone's couch and make jokes if there's nothing else to. There isn't as much friction. Keeping friends is easy. I don't mean any of this in a "superior" way-- in fact I feel like with every generation my culture grows more like the larger American culture-- a little more awkward and formal. So I'm not saying we have all the answers, these are just observations I've made. To me it feels like Americans used to really value "man time"-- going out and BBQing or going camping just to spend time with other men-- isn't really valued anymore. Sometimes it's even looked down upon as excessively masculine and unnecessary, or even gay(I've felt this when i told a friend who moved away that I missed him and made a joke about me being gay-- not saying it's universal). I'd say articles like this reimforce the value of men hanging out with men just to have someone who gets you
lystlaunt 5y ago
It's a hard problem because people's individual psychologies are so different; more concretely, what works for one person might not for another. Here's what worked for me. In terms of thoughts, I rejected the conditioning (maybe even the instinct) that I need to have lots of friends, or even a close friend, to be happy. I still dress nice and take care of myself, but I'm happier with solitary activities like reading, where I can still learn from other people. I also don't hesitate to do typical group activities by myself sometimes (e.g. grabbing a nice dinner or going to the movies). I also do see people at martial arts, though it's less of a direct friendship with them. For a population instead of an individual, I would generally recommend being okay with being solitary and staying connected by working on projects or anything related to physical fitness without expecting friendships. I think it's hard to have a best friend for most people as you get older, anyways; I believe it's better for a significant other to be a close confidant in that sense.

eigengrau5150 5y ago

A cat is fine, too.

Mirioron 5y ago

Does this apply to people who play video games? If you play social games like MMOs you're pretty much forced to interact with others. Does that help in any way combat the issues?

NetOpWibby 5y ago
I think it does help. I play Fortnite at least once a week with one of my buddies and we catch up on life while playing. We’re also in a group chat and share links and updates there. My wife told me recently that she was jealous of my friendships because of how often we chat. Meanwhile, she’s the more social one and talks on the phone a helluva lot more than I do. Like the article suggested, she definitely manages all the familial relationships with couple friends and keeps in touch with those folks. I see ‘em when I see ‘em LOL (she’s also on Facebook, I’m not). I wouldn’t mind making new IRL friends but I simply do not care. If that happens, great. My small circle of friends I’ve known for at least a decade is enough for me.
haunter 5y ago
> If you play social games like MMOs you're pretty much forced to interact with others That maybe was the case with the oldschool MMOs (Everquest for example) where you could do not do anything alone but nowdays you can pretty much play them as a single player game. FFXIV, WoW, GW2 etc. are incredibly solo friendly. You don't even need to join a guild or such there is automated matchmaking for most group content. You can play these games without ever interacting with any other players. And a lot of people do that because they care more about the world or story or things that don't need other players (see crafting, gathering etc.) Heck even FFXI which soon will be 20 years old is solo friendly thanks to the NPC party members they introduced some years ago.
- claudiawerner 5y ago
  Not to mention the 'lobby' system in many games these days; unless you make friends by chance with people already playing online games, you effectively play with random people on your team, and random people on the other team. Gone are the days where games in which you can join a regular server, where you see your friends, join a clan, etc. are the norm. Now you have to send friend requests to people and hope they accept, and even then, you can't play against your friends in casual play, only with them. Recently I showed my little brother of an online FPS game from 2003, showing someone at a high skill level doing the map objective without help. The player killed everyone in sight with ease. My brother commented, "How the hell was that guy placed in a lobby with all these bad players?". To him, the only way that online FPS games work is that you queue in a lobby to be placed with people of a similar skill level. It didn't occur to him that you used to be able to join a server at a particular IP address and play with regulars and crack jokes with people you've known for years.

gr1zzlybe4r 5y ago

I've recently started opening up to more people about this in my personal life. Like many others on here, I've worked remote now since March 2020, and the lack of interpersonal interaction with others during my work days has taken a great personal toll. I still go out with my significant other and see other people as well when we go out, but I've found it really hard to get meaning out of work when I don't see people. That, coupled with a move to a new city (to be closer to outdoor activities), has meant that I've struggled with feelings of loneliness. I think part of the problem is that admitting this type of feeling is seen as personal weakness in men but perfectly acceptable for a woman to talk about. When men say they're lonely, it's often hard to find other men to talk about it with. I know that I'll get out of it because I'm pretty extroverted, but just thought I'd give my personal (and recent) experience with what this article is talking about.

lystlaunt 5y ago
This is interesting to read as I'm pretty introverted, so I've taken the opposite approach. I avoid talking about it because I expect to be treated differently in a negative way by work colleagues if I admit it, and I don't know many people close enough outside of a work context to speak about it. My approach, which is fairly effective at causing happiness, is to start by finding joy in solitary activities, versus seeking friends. I really like reading classic books, film, and music. I don't expect to make a close friend like I did in my youth, and I also prefer not to, because I felt like my former best friend took advantage of the fact that I wouldn't have any close connections left if he left, and treated me in a way that made my life worse for a while until I ended things. So, I figure there are worse things than being alone. If anything, I'm treat relationships with significant others as best friend relationships with intimacy. Otherwise, I have healthy working relationships work colleagues, but I don't expect to make friends like in high school, and I'm usually pretty happy trying to better myself mostly on my own. Charles Bukowski's poem comes to mind: there are worse things than being alone but it often takes decades to realize this and most often when you do it's too late and there's nothing worse than too late
entropyie 5y ago
Renting a coworking desk helped my morale after a year of working at home. Even a cafe once a week could help.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nunez 5y ago

This article is interesting. I don’t think the loneliness that OP is talking about here is universally bad. I don’t have any close friends. I have a social media presence, but aside from Reddit (with which I only use the comments features), I don’t use those platforms at all. I’ve never been unhappy with this arrangement though; in fact, I love my time alone. However, I have heaps of acquaintances (i.e. folks in my contacts list that I don’t call or see often) and am social when I go out. I know how to strike up conversation and know how to have and be a good time. I enjoy these activities, but doing without doesn’t impact me negatively unless I spend many many months not doing that.

idinnoaname 5y ago

Interestingly enough there are a lot of comments in this thread that seemingly support the authors statements.