6 ms·

Cuba’s bet on home-grown Covid vaccines is paying off

49 points by sohkamyung 5y ago

johndoe0815 5y ago
The achievements of the Cuban medical system (their research as well as its practical application) are impressive - especially considering the embargo conditions. Cuba also regularly sends doctors to help with medical emergencies and to support developing countries - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_medical_internationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_medical_internationalism
- perl4ever 5y ago
  Would you describe yourself as a skeptic, or a cynic? Do you find Cuban government statistics more credible than US ones?
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    I don’t find them more credible but if Cuba was lying about how good it’s medical system was, wouldn’t it have been reported on? Communist nations are easier able to allocate capital as they wish over the short term (why the USSR was able to become an industrial power house so quickly, but failed to diversify its economy afterwards.) so it’s likely that medical services are just the Cuban version of “heavy industry” in the USSR so while it is an achievement they still lag behind developed nations is most things so they aren’t as well rounded economically speaking. At least that’s my take, would be happy to read up on anything irt the stats being falsified if you have that.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Cuba also regularly sends doctors to help with medical emergencies and to support developing countries From what I heard, they are decades behind. Keep in mind that it's harder to become a taxi driver than a "doctor" in Cuba.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    Most medical problems don't need cutting edge treatment. Compared to the US, Cuba's medical system is much more weighted towards primary care and universal health care. Med school in Cuba is 6 years of study. I can't find where it's harder to become a taxi driver. Can you clarify? The most difficult taxi license I know is the black cab license for London, which takes some people years to acquire "The Knowledge." Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_of_the_United_Kingdom#The_Knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_of_the_United_Kingdom#Th... ] It is the world's most demanding training course for taxicab drivers, and applicants will usually need to pass at least twelve "appearances" (periodical one-on-one oral examinations undertaken throughout the qualification process), with the whole process averaging 34 months to pass. 3 years < 6 years, and I find it hard to believe that Cuba's taxi license acquisition process is more arduous than London's black cab one.
    - pkaye 5y ago
      I don't if the Cuban taxi license acquisition process is hard but I've heard they can make much more money catering to the tourists than a working as a doctor there.
      - eesmith 5y ago
        Yes. And there's likely all sort of interesting comparisons there, like how taxi services in Cuba make their money from foreign tourists, the relative comparison of "medical deserts" in the two countries, the type of people willing to go deeply into debt for a US MD, vs. a state-funded MD in Cuba, and the types of medicine they go into (eg, primary care vs. specialist care; urban or rich vs. rural or poor patients). I tried searching Google Scholar, but the topic is vast and my time little. I thought https://human-resources-health.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12960-020-0450-9 https://human-resources-health.biomedcentral.com/articles/10... ("Medical training for universal health coverage: a review of Cuba–South Africa collaboration") was an interesting read: > Doctors play an essential leadership role in achieving UHC, but in most countries, their training is orientated towards curative, high technology sub-specialisation in medicine and surgery. The financial and academic barriers to admission to medical school tend to favour the selection of students from privileged backgrounds, leading to young doctors who have limited direct experience of the health needs of poor rural and under-served urban communities, with few choosing to serve these communities ... > RSA’s long heritage of British medical education traditions and academic excellence, selection of the brightest students and its strong emphasis on specialisation have not helped in developing primary health care. .. > Cuba adopted an entirely different approach to medical education with the emphasis on primary health care, an interdisciplinary approach, a strong community participation, an internationalist focus, and a health workforce of sufficient size and skills to meet population needs. Much of the training is in rural polyclinics as part of a primary care team, giving students a community and primary care orientation for a large part of their training. Moreover, their values are different: solidarity with poor and disadvantaged communities, and a willingness to serve in a variety of challenging settings [17]. Importantly, Cuba has achieved impressive improvements in population health, aided by these innovations [18].
refurb 5y ago
”The United States’ 60-year-old economic embargo against the country, which prevents US-made products from being exported there, would make it difficult for Cuba to acquire vaccines and therapies, researchers and officials knew.” The embargo has had an exception for food and medicine for the past 30 years. I’d guess the reason has more to do with minimal foreign exchange reserves to purchase vaccines from any country.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  Cuba is also free to trade with 179 other countries in the world. Honestly, the Cuban people can stop this embargo tomorrow morning by simply returning stolen property to it's rightful owners and deciding to chose democracy over the support of the Castro family. Same way the patriots at the Boston tea party chose democracy. The Castro family could have ended this suffering decades ago. They decided not to, preferring to see "their" people starve and die of preventable diseases.
  - jandrese 5y ago
    It would be very hard politically to end the embargo now. Florida is too important and the Cuban ex-pat vote moves the needle. If you don’t take a hard line on Cuba you lose almost 30 delegates.
  - eynsham 5y ago
    It’s rather opaque at least to me who the ‘rightful owners’ are: willing buyer and willing seller might suggest indigenous Cubans, but I doubt that would do much about the blockade, and might makes right would presumably suggest that the party is right. Moreover even if the ‘rightful owners’ of property were found, it’s far from obvious how that would solve geopolitical difficulties with the US; after all, all sorts of governments which violate most Americans’ notions of property rights are on very good terms with it. As for the possibility of spontaneously choosing ‘democracy over the support of the Castro family’, at best this is an almost vacuous statement akin to ‘if nobody were to litter there would be no more additional litter’. Even quite praiseworthy and courageous peoples have some difficulty overthrowing their governments (e.g. in Sudan, Myanmar, Hong Kong…); the ‘patriots at the Boston tea party’ made similar choices, but merely choosing revolt does not guarantee success. Finally, on the embargo: the medicines exception of course exists, but US sanctions can, if desired, affect trade with most of the world economy, since most companies have some connexion e.g. to the US financial system. To the extent that is not the case in Cuba, that is because the implicit suggestion of the original quote, viz., that were sanctions loosened certain economic benefits would accrue in Cuba, has itself either been implemented or not been contradicted by some contrary policy.
rossdavidh 5y ago
Cuba's reported covid-19 rates went skyrocketing a few months back (at one point more than 0.5% were getting it every week), and then plummeted back down to low levels (presumably due to the Delta variant, but I don't know if that's why). It will be interesting to see if they are able to keep their rates low using this vaccine. "Vérez Bencomo says the Finlay Institute can produce 10 million Soberana 02 doses per month..." With a population of 11 million, this would allow Cuba to get vaccinated in short order, one would think?
- perl4ever 5y ago
  >presumably due to the Delta variant Everywhere else the Delta variant has led to more cases, hasn't it? So why would it cause fewer cases in Cuba?
  - countvonbalzac 5y ago
    Delta spread so quickly that everyone got delta in short order and now has some level of immunity
  - rossdavidh 5y ago
    Yeah, I don't actually doubt that it was due to the Delta variant, I'm just pointing out that I don't actually have any evidence regarding that, and I'm not well informed regarding the pandemic in Cuba in particular. If there had been something else going on in Cuba, I wouldn't necessarily know about it. But I expect it was Delta.
- yosito 5y ago
  > this would allow Cuba to get vaccinated in short order, one would think? Yes, that would explain why Cuba is one of the most highly vaccinated countries in the world.
yosito 5y ago
Cuba knew they wouldn't be able to buy the vaccines they needed, so they produced their own. More poor countries should have followed this path, rather than waiting on rich countries to gift them extra doses.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Cuba is unique for a poor country in that it has rich medical resources. I don’t think any other smaller poor country could have pulled this off (debatable if Cuba is even that poor given its healthcare and education resources).
  - yosito 5y ago
    > it has rich medical resources This is debatable. It has a lot of doctors and invests what little resources it has into healthcare, but that doesn't make it rich in medical resources. It comes down to the decisions made by the government on what to do with their limited resources.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      Cuba has been well known to have a decent healthcare system for more than a few decades now. They’ve made a conscious effort to develop talent and research capabilities, it isn’t that another country with similar resources could replicate over night without continuous investment over a few decades. > It comes down to the decisions made by the government on what to do with their limited resources. Limited resources applied over a long period of time can lead to rich resources in certain areas. I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with here.
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    > I don’t think any other smaller poor country could have pulled this off India?
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      India isn’t small.
an9n 5y ago
Top comment distracts from the main news here, which is that this looks like a genuinely good alternative to the 'vaccines' from the big boys. Coincidence?

49 points by sohkamyung 5y ago

The achievements of the Cuban medical system (their research as well as its practical application) are impressive - especially considering the embargo conditions. Cuba also regularly sends doctors to help with medical emergencies and to support developing countries - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_medical_internationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_medical_internationalism

perl4ever 5y ago
Would you describe yourself as a skeptic, or a cynic? Do you find Cuban government statistics more credible than US ones?
- edgyquant 5y ago
  I don’t find them more credible but if Cuba was lying about how good it’s medical system was, wouldn’t it have been reported on? Communist nations are easier able to allocate capital as they wish over the short term (why the USSR was able to become an industrial power house so quickly, but failed to diversify its economy afterwards.) so it’s likely that medical services are just the Cuban version of “heavy industry” in the USSR so while it is an achievement they still lag behind developed nations is most things so they aren’t as well rounded economically speaking. At least that’s my take, would be happy to read up on anything irt the stats being falsified if you have that.
908B64B197 5y ago
> Cuba also regularly sends doctors to help with medical emergencies and to support developing countries From what I heard, they are decades behind. Keep in mind that it's harder to become a taxi driver than a "doctor" in Cuba.
- eesmith 5y ago
  Most medical problems don't need cutting edge treatment. Compared to the US, Cuba's medical system is much more weighted towards primary care and universal health care. Med school in Cuba is 6 years of study. I can't find where it's harder to become a taxi driver. Can you clarify? The most difficult taxi license I know is the black cab license for London, which takes some people years to acquire "The Knowledge." Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_of_the_United_Kingdom#The_Knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_of_the_United_Kingdom#Th... ] It is the world's most demanding training course for taxicab drivers, and applicants will usually need to pass at least twelve "appearances" (periodical one-on-one oral examinations undertaken throughout the qualification process), with the whole process averaging 34 months to pass. 3 years < 6 years, and I find it hard to believe that Cuba's taxi license acquisition process is more arduous than London's black cab one.
  - pkaye 5y ago
    I don't if the Cuban taxi license acquisition process is hard but I've heard they can make much more money catering to the tourists than a working as a doctor there.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      Yes. And there's likely all sort of interesting comparisons there, like how taxi services in Cuba make their money from foreign tourists, the relative comparison of "medical deserts" in the two countries, the type of people willing to go deeply into debt for a US MD, vs. a state-funded MD in Cuba, and the types of medicine they go into (eg, primary care vs. specialist care; urban or rich vs. rural or poor patients). I tried searching Google Scholar, but the topic is vast and my time little. I thought https://human-resources-health.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12960-020-0450-9 https://human-resources-health.biomedcentral.com/articles/10... ("Medical training for universal health coverage: a review of Cuba–South Africa collaboration") was an interesting read: > Doctors play an essential leadership role in achieving UHC, but in most countries, their training is orientated towards curative, high technology sub-specialisation in medicine and surgery. The financial and academic barriers to admission to medical school tend to favour the selection of students from privileged backgrounds, leading to young doctors who have limited direct experience of the health needs of poor rural and under-served urban communities, with few choosing to serve these communities ... > RSA’s long heritage of British medical education traditions and academic excellence, selection of the brightest students and its strong emphasis on specialisation have not helped in developing primary health care. .. > Cuba adopted an entirely different approach to medical education with the emphasis on primary health care, an interdisciplinary approach, a strong community participation, an internationalist focus, and a health workforce of sufficient size and skills to meet population needs. Much of the training is in rural polyclinics as part of a primary care team, giving students a community and primary care orientation for a large part of their training. Moreover, their values are different: solidarity with poor and disadvantaged communities, and a willingness to serve in a variety of challenging settings [17]. Importantly, Cuba has achieved impressive improvements in population health, aided by these innovations [18].

refurb 5y ago

”The United States’ 60-year-old economic embargo against the country, which prevents US-made products from being exported there, would make it difficult for Cuba to acquire vaccines and therapies, researchers and officials knew.” The embargo has had an exception for food and medicine for the past 30 years. I’d guess the reason has more to do with minimal foreign exchange reserves to purchase vaccines from any country.

908B64B197 5y ago
Cuba is also free to trade with 179 other countries in the world. Honestly, the Cuban people can stop this embargo tomorrow morning by simply returning stolen property to it's rightful owners and deciding to chose democracy over the support of the Castro family. Same way the patriots at the Boston tea party chose democracy. The Castro family could have ended this suffering decades ago. They decided not to, preferring to see "their" people starve and die of preventable diseases.
- jandrese 5y ago
  It would be very hard politically to end the embargo now. Florida is too important and the Cuban ex-pat vote moves the needle. If you don’t take a hard line on Cuba you lose almost 30 delegates.
- eynsham 5y ago
  It’s rather opaque at least to me who the ‘rightful owners’ are: willing buyer and willing seller might suggest indigenous Cubans, but I doubt that would do much about the blockade, and might makes right would presumably suggest that the party is right. Moreover even if the ‘rightful owners’ of property were found, it’s far from obvious how that would solve geopolitical difficulties with the US; after all, all sorts of governments which violate most Americans’ notions of property rights are on very good terms with it. As for the possibility of spontaneously choosing ‘democracy over the support of the Castro family’, at best this is an almost vacuous statement akin to ‘if nobody were to litter there would be no more additional litter’. Even quite praiseworthy and courageous peoples have some difficulty overthrowing their governments (e.g. in Sudan, Myanmar, Hong Kong…); the ‘patriots at the Boston tea party’ made similar choices, but merely choosing revolt does not guarantee success. Finally, on the embargo: the medicines exception of course exists, but US sanctions can, if desired, affect trade with most of the world economy, since most companies have some connexion e.g. to the US financial system. To the extent that is not the case in Cuba, that is because the implicit suggestion of the original quote, viz., that were sanctions loosened certain economic benefits would accrue in Cuba, has itself either been implemented or not been contradicted by some contrary policy.

rossdavidh 5y ago

Cuba's reported covid-19 rates went skyrocketing a few months back (at one point more than 0.5% were getting it every week), and then plummeted back down to low levels (presumably due to the Delta variant, but I don't know if that's why). It will be interesting to see if they are able to keep their rates low using this vaccine. "Vérez Bencomo says the Finlay Institute can produce 10 million Soberana 02 doses per month..." With a population of 11 million, this would allow Cuba to get vaccinated in short order, one would think?

perl4ever 5y ago
>presumably due to the Delta variant Everywhere else the Delta variant has led to more cases, hasn't it? So why would it cause fewer cases in Cuba?
- countvonbalzac 5y ago
  Delta spread so quickly that everyone got delta in short order and now has some level of immunity
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  Yeah, I don't actually doubt that it was due to the Delta variant, I'm just pointing out that I don't actually have any evidence regarding that, and I'm not well informed regarding the pandemic in Cuba in particular. If there had been something else going on in Cuba, I wouldn't necessarily know about it. But I expect it was Delta.
yosito 5y ago
> this would allow Cuba to get vaccinated in short order, one would think? Yes, that would explain why Cuba is one of the most highly vaccinated countries in the world.

yosito 5y ago

Cuba knew they wouldn't be able to buy the vaccines they needed, so they produced their own. More poor countries should have followed this path, rather than waiting on rich countries to gift them extra doses.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Cuba is unique for a poor country in that it has rich medical resources. I don’t think any other smaller poor country could have pulled this off (debatable if Cuba is even that poor given its healthcare and education resources).
- yosito 5y ago
  > it has rich medical resources This is debatable. It has a lot of doctors and invests what little resources it has into healthcare, but that doesn't make it rich in medical resources. It comes down to the decisions made by the government on what to do with their limited resources.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Cuba has been well known to have a decent healthcare system for more than a few decades now. They’ve made a conscious effort to develop talent and research capabilities, it isn’t that another country with similar resources could replicate over night without continuous investment over a few decades. > It comes down to the decisions made by the government on what to do with their limited resources. Limited resources applied over a long period of time can lead to rich resources in certain areas. I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with here.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  > I don’t think any other smaller poor country could have pulled this off India?
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    India isn’t small.

an9n 5y ago

Top comment distracts from the main news here, which is that this looks like a genuinely good alternative to the 'vaccines' from the big boys. Coincidence?