6 ms·

This...is in line with intuition. It's interesting that "mathematical circles" have become more popular, in line with this.

lern_too_spel 5y ago
Yet despite this being completely obvious to anybody who has any experience with tutoring, I see people rolling out the same old discredited hypothesis of genetics having the largest influence on academic achievement in every HN thread tangentially related to intelligence.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  At the top end, performance levels are determined by intrinsics perhaps genetics, perhaps not). If I had been coached in basketball every day since birth I could have become a very good basketball player. I would have probably been the captain of my high school team despite being 5 foot 6. However there is ~zero chance I would gotten to the level of playing in the NBA. Anyone can get better at anything, but they will ~always be worse than someone.
- ryan93 5y ago
  Anyone who has taught knows there are wild differences in ability. Not that I think everyone is reaching their potential.
  - jvanderbot 5y ago
    I agree (having taught), but I disagree it's somehow genetic (which implies inevitable and irreversible). Most of the time it was a mismatch in prerequisites and a mental block like anxiety.
    - ngcc_hk 5y ago
      It can’t be not genetic. Just not totally I guess you meant. Or determinist as you said. As above said many factors but push genetic out is also not good.
  - jodrellblank 5y ago
    Phineas Gage[1] would have limited ability, it doesn't mean he was genetically destined to get a rod through the brain. Weston Price[2] photographed and studied people around the world and wrote the book "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" arguing that modern diets lead to physical development problems. Not that it can't be influenced by genetics, or that people can all be the same; very few people will be Von Neumann reading a 46-volume world history series in his fifth language at age 8. But saying "these people are failing at school, it's genetic" is a handwavy dismissal; a giving up on them. If it is, what should it change about teaching? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage [2] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=nutrition+and+physical+degeneration&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=nutrition+and+physical+dege...
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    If you have tutored one-on-one, you will surely have noticed that the difference in ability is miniscule compared to what can be taught by tutoring. Indian children do not have a genetic predisposition to spelling English words correctly.
- rajin444 5y ago
  What dictates your ability to learn if it's not genetics? I suppose if you believe in a higher power that might work.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Perhaps the point is most people are limited by unfulfilled potential - not that they've reached their genetic max. I do t think anyone would argue that a really nurtured lettuce plant would ever match ability to learn with a slightly neglected human.
  - sp332 5y ago
    Parents' income level https://phys.org/news/2014-02-parental-income-strong-predictor-student.html https://phys.org/news/2014-02-parental-income-strong-predict... Organizational skills https://www.jstor.org/stable/23887095 https://www.jstor.org/stable/23887095 Class size http://www.classsizematters.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/200030311.pdf http://www.classsizematters.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2... (PDF) Home environment https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09737189.2009.11885270 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09737189.2009.11...
    - barry-cotter 5y ago
      Three of those are genetically inluenced. The better your educational sysyem is at imparting non-cognitive skills and at removing children from abusive and unsafe environments the more the generits will matter for the same reason genetics mattered more for height in 1900s US than UK, saturation of inputs. As for the one that is in no way genetic > Small class size has at best a small effect on academic achievement, and may harm some students > Reducing class size is seen as a way of improving student performance. But larger class sizes help control education budgets. The evidence suggests at best a small effect on reading achievement. There is a negative, but statistically insignificant, effect on mathematics, so it cannot be ruled out that some children may be adversely affected. https://www.campbellcollaboration.org/better-evidence/small-class-sizes-student-achievement-primary-and-secondary-schools.html https://www.campbellcollaboration.org/better-evidence/small-...
  - 5y ago
- User23 5y ago
  Improved environment actually exacerbates genetic differences. One obvious example is height. Back when malnourishment was common most everyone was rather short and nutrition was the best predictor of height. In an environment where adequate nutrition is widespread, genetics is the best predictor of height. I’m distrustful of analogies, but I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that we’ll see a similar effect with improving education. Although solving that is going to be trickier than nutrition I expect.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Right, today everyone gets to go to a decent school for many years. Historically people didn't go to school. Take my case, I was neglected as a kid, my mom often didn't have a place to live so we moved between her friends places. I was raised on fast food and cookies, never did homework or studied. Yet I still did much better than average people in school and later got into Google as a software engineer. Most people who fail to get good grades in math had a much better home environment than I had, if they had my genes they would have gotten perfect grades in it like I did. So from my perspective, the only thing I can say is that they are stupid privileged rich kids (a kid whose parent has a stable place where they can live is privileged from my perspective) who didn't have any difficulties in life and still can't even do something as simple as calculus even after having listened to it in class for like 100 hours. "Outliers doesn't matter" They sure do in this kind of discussion. If you just ignore all the kids with good genes who came from bad environments then of course it is easy to say that good genes doesn't matter, but there are a lot of such kids. And the kids from poor environments who don't do well just didn't have good enough genes to make up for the environment. I can say that if every kid had my level of talent for math then basically every single kid would get straight A's on every math course given today that a typical software engineer takes without studying. I did that, and most people have better upbringings than me. Of course in that case the curriculum would adapt, but still. (Note that we shouldn't base education decisions on outliers however. I can't give people any advice on what to do, others can't do the same thing as me, I just understood everything in class from sitting there and listening, other kids obviously doesn't do the same so they need help. But still you can't say that genes don't matter) Edit: Also note that I have two brothers who will likely go through their entire lives without ever having a stable job. There wasn't some kind of hidden special thing in my upgringing.

lern_too_spel 5y ago

Yet despite this being completely obvious to anybody who has any experience with tutoring, I see people rolling out the same old discredited hypothesis of genetics having the largest influence on academic achievement in every HN thread tangentially related to intelligence.

spoonjim 5y ago
At the top end, performance levels are determined by intrinsics perhaps genetics, perhaps not). If I had been coached in basketball every day since birth I could have become a very good basketball player. I would have probably been the captain of my high school team despite being 5 foot 6. However there is ~zero chance I would gotten to the level of playing in the NBA. Anyone can get better at anything, but they will ~always be worse than someone.
ryan93 5y ago
Anyone who has taught knows there are wild differences in ability. Not that I think everyone is reaching their potential.
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  I agree (having taught), but I disagree it's somehow genetic (which implies inevitable and irreversible). Most of the time it was a mismatch in prerequisites and a mental block like anxiety.
  - ngcc_hk 5y ago
    It can’t be not genetic. Just not totally I guess you meant. Or determinist as you said. As above said many factors but push genetic out is also not good.
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  Phineas Gage[1] would have limited ability, it doesn't mean he was genetically destined to get a rod through the brain. Weston Price[2] photographed and studied people around the world and wrote the book "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" arguing that modern diets lead to physical development problems. Not that it can't be influenced by genetics, or that people can all be the same; very few people will be Von Neumann reading a 46-volume world history series in his fifth language at age 8. But saying "these people are failing at school, it's genetic" is a handwavy dismissal; a giving up on them. If it is, what should it change about teaching? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage [2] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=nutrition+and+physical+degeneration&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=nutrition+and+physical+dege...
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  If you have tutored one-on-one, you will surely have noticed that the difference in ability is miniscule compared to what can be taught by tutoring. Indian children do not have a genetic predisposition to spelling English words correctly.
rajin444 5y ago
What dictates your ability to learn if it's not genetics? I suppose if you believe in a higher power that might work.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Perhaps the point is most people are limited by unfulfilled potential - not that they've reached their genetic max. I do t think anyone would argue that a really nurtured lettuce plant would ever match ability to learn with a slightly neglected human.
- sp332 5y ago
  Parents' income level https://phys.org/news/2014-02-parental-income-strong-predictor-student.html https://phys.org/news/2014-02-parental-income-strong-predict... Organizational skills https://www.jstor.org/stable/23887095 https://www.jstor.org/stable/23887095 Class size http://www.classsizematters.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/200030311.pdf http://www.classsizematters.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2... (PDF) Home environment https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09737189.2009.11885270 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09737189.2009.11...
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    Three of those are genetically inluenced. The better your educational sysyem is at imparting non-cognitive skills and at removing children from abusive and unsafe environments the more the generits will matter for the same reason genetics mattered more for height in 1900s US than UK, saturation of inputs. As for the one that is in no way genetic > Small class size has at best a small effect on academic achievement, and may harm some students > Reducing class size is seen as a way of improving student performance. But larger class sizes help control education budgets. The evidence suggests at best a small effect on reading achievement. There is a negative, but statistically insignificant, effect on mathematics, so it cannot be ruled out that some children may be adversely affected. https://www.campbellcollaboration.org/better-evidence/small-class-sizes-student-achievement-primary-and-secondary-schools.html https://www.campbellcollaboration.org/better-evidence/small-...
- 5y ago
User23 5y ago
Improved environment actually exacerbates genetic differences. One obvious example is height. Back when malnourishment was common most everyone was rather short and nutrition was the best predictor of height. In an environment where adequate nutrition is widespread, genetics is the best predictor of height. I’m distrustful of analogies, but I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that we’ll see a similar effect with improving education. Although solving that is going to be trickier than nutrition I expect.
- Jensson 5y ago
  Right, today everyone gets to go to a decent school for many years. Historically people didn't go to school. Take my case, I was neglected as a kid, my mom often didn't have a place to live so we moved between her friends places. I was raised on fast food and cookies, never did homework or studied. Yet I still did much better than average people in school and later got into Google as a software engineer. Most people who fail to get good grades in math had a much better home environment than I had, if they had my genes they would have gotten perfect grades in it like I did. So from my perspective, the only thing I can say is that they are stupid privileged rich kids (a kid whose parent has a stable place where they can live is privileged from my perspective) who didn't have any difficulties in life and still can't even do something as simple as calculus even after having listened to it in class for like 100 hours. "Outliers doesn't matter" They sure do in this kind of discussion. If you just ignore all the kids with good genes who came from bad environments then of course it is easy to say that good genes doesn't matter, but there are a lot of such kids. And the kids from poor environments who don't do well just didn't have good enough genes to make up for the environment. I can say that if every kid had my level of talent for math then basically every single kid would get straight A's on every math course given today that a typical software engineer takes without studying. I did that, and most people have better upbringings than me. Of course in that case the curriculum would adapt, but still. (Note that we shouldn't base education decisions on outliers however. I can't give people any advice on what to do, others can't do the same thing as me, I just understood everything in class from sitting there and listening, other kids obviously doesn't do the same so they need help. But still you can't say that genes don't matter) Edit: Also note that I have two brothers who will likely go through their entire lives without ever having a stable job. There wasn't some kind of hidden special thing in my upgringing.