24 ms·

Djinn Split Keyboard

214 points by rolph 5y ago

gfody 5y ago
I wonder can you use the the two knobs to control the mouse etch-a-sketch style?
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  Left knob for bearing, right knob for speed.
  - 3np 5y ago
    This made me chuckle. And reminded me of https://uxdesign.cc/the-worst-volume-control-ui-in-the-world-60713dc86950 https://uxdesign.cc/the-worst-volume-control-ui-in-the-world...
  - aasasd 5y ago
    Now I gotta somehow try that with a gamepad. Driving simulation, coming to your desktop. Traverse the lands of hyperlinks, deliver files from window to window.
- sleepybrett 5y ago
  QMK supports that.
- twalla 5y ago
  QMK does have mouse support so you could map each encoder to an axis for the mouse I think. https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_pointing_device https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_pointing_device
- iamevn 5y ago
  here's a build log for basically that: https://mitxela.com/projects/etch_mouse https://mitxela.com/projects/etch_mouse (except on an ATtiny85 instead of part of a keyboard)
sleepybrett 5y ago
YAIC (yet another iris clone)
- opan 5y ago
  The Djinn layout is a bit different, closer to a Pinky4.
- tzarc 5y ago
  Full disclosure: I started my foray into split keyboards with an Iris. ...but it didn't have all the keys I wanted, thus the Djinn.
aasasd 5y ago
I hoped that someone finally got the right idea, and those djinn-pads are touch-pads. Alas, no such luck.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ddlutz 5y ago
  I would love something like that, either touch trackpad or some trackball with easy way to left click and right click. No more switching between "two different input devices".
- tzarc 5y ago
  In a week or so, QMK will pick up a whole bunch of new support for pointing devices -- Djinn's open-source, so if you're keen you can swap a display out for a Cirque touchpad for instance.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Maybe this, but I haven't looked at it beyond the title: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/qrm3i1/disconnect72_wireless_hotswappable_split_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/qrm3i1...
alanfranz 5y ago
I would love something like the old SK-6000 keyboard ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/264750292234 https://www.ebay.com/itm/264750292234 ), maybe without the numpad, but with all other keys, and possibly mechanical (silent) switches. It seems that nowadays we get either extremely peculiar split keyboards (without F-Keys, PgUp/PgDown) or something just doesn't feel right (PgUp/PgDown keys aligned vertically instead of horizontally, cursor keys with strange alignments and positioning, et cetera). I think that a "normal keyboard just with a certain angle in the middle" would be simple enough and great.
- 8589934591 5y ago
  Have a look at this, it's almost close to what you're looking for https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
  - alanfranz 5y ago
    Is this a joke?
    - 8589934591 5y ago
      I don't know why you would think that. I didn't mean it that way. It certainly is a minimalistic keyboard but a good one.
- Zitrax 5y ago
  I have the same issue, earlier I was using a Logitech Comfort keyboard: https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/23-126-121-07.JPG https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/23-1... which I loved, but have not found a good replacement, they are either split with a smaller angle or are those peculiar fully split ones as you mention.
- aasasd 5y ago
  What you describe is just MS Natural 4000. There's also MS Sculpt, with better keys: still rubberdomed, but less jiggly and way less clacky. The crowded home—pagedown column is actually alright once you get used to it, and I really don't use ‘delete’ and ‘insert’ much. However, the function-or-media switch is atrocious, pure disgrace as a design decision. I'm using ‘USB Overdrive’ to map ‘calculator’ to Fn instead, but it's still not the same. Might map the separate numpad, once I find batteries for it.
js8 5y ago
I am considering properly learning an ergonomic keyboard, but I like the minimalist ones - like the GergoPlex. They are more affordable and there is something appealing in minimizing the finger movement.
- jedimind 5y ago
  Beautiful keyboard, I have never heard of GergoPlex before. I would buy it in a heartbeat if wireless versions were available.
  - yoavm 5y ago
    Search for the Corne-ish Zen, I think you'd like it.
    - jedimind 5y ago
      Yo that one is sick!!! Love it, thanks so much for suggesting it <3
    - __mharrison__ 5y ago
      Looks nice but I don't want wireless. (Retro grouch)
      - zmix 5y ago
        Also, wireless makes it impossible to have a USB hub on the keyboard, which is nice to free up clutter on the desk. Otherwise I'd need an extra hub.
  - Fetiorin 5y ago
    You can build your own given soldering skills/willingness to learn. Ferris Sweep (PCB is open source) with nice!nano controller.
- __mharrison__ 5y ago
  Long time ergodox user here. I was considering getting a GergoPlex before Covid as I was travelling a bit for work. I even put a "GergoPlex" layer on my ergodox to practice. However, it looks like they no longer sell the "heavy" and with Covid I haven't been travelling, no practicing the Gergo chords.
Separo 5y ago
I've found that the annoying thing with these floating split keyboards is that you don't develop the muscle memory because the keys are always in a slightly different position each time it moves around. You need a bracket to keep the halves in exactly the same spot every time when you're in split mode in order to get that muscle memory.
- fleaaaa 5y ago
  There's homing h/j key for it, though I rarely need it.
- ruffrey 5y ago
  I had this problem. Bought some small rubber bump things for home row keys. Quite easy now.
- hossbeast 5y ago
  I don't have a problem with it. The muscle memory takes wrist orientation into account possibly?
- StephenJGL 5y ago
  I would recommend a Microsoft Sculpt if you want the split without the hassle.
  - Agingcoder 5y ago
    I have a kinesis edge for the same reason.
- toxik 5y ago
  I partially agree, if you’ve moved your hands away it can be difficult to “relocalize”. It’s not that big a deal though, I find. My main problem now is that I want Apple level low travel (and low profile) but also split. Guess I’ll wind up building my own eventually.
- __mharrison__ 5y ago
  That hasn't been my experience. (Sample size one). I also use the Norman layout on my ErgoDox, but Qwerty on normal keyboards. Hasn't really been an issue (other than learning Norman).
stunt 5y ago
I tried building custom keyboards! It was a lot of fun waiting for parts, assembling and customizing them. And if nothing it was the best soldering training ever cos I got really good at soldering in the end.
drudoo 5y ago
Reminds me of my Lily58. Looks pretty cool but those screens are huge.
- memco 5y ago
  Yeah, I have a Lily58 and this appeals to me since I would actually like one more column. Mine was pre-made and has an encoder where I would like my "[" to be so this would also help solve a problem I'm not too well equipped to solve. And since I'm not really up to procuring the equipment and time to learn to solder I would love to buy one of these pre-made: anyone know where I can buy a pre-built version?
  - drudoo 5y ago
    I don’t see anywhere to buy a pre made one. As far as I can see, no shop even sells the kits to make them yourself.
    - detaro 5y ago
      https://ergomech.store/shop/product/lily58-3 https://ergomech.store/shop/product/lily58-3 - as far sa I understand since it has hotswap sockets you don't need to solder if you get the "pre-assembled" version, but still need to get your own switches and keycaps.
      - drudoo 5y ago
        Of course you can buy Lily58 but I was talking about Djinn from the OP.
        detaro 5y ago
        ah, oops. my bad, misread the subthread.
        drudoo 5y ago
        No worries. I already have a Lily58 and a couple of other split boards, so the Djinn is pretty interesting.
frio 5y ago
I'm RSI-adjacent (never diagnosed, but flat keyboards give me pangs after a while) and have a ~6 year old home-made Ergodox currently, and really like it (though I have to admit, there's a definite cognitive overhead switching between QWERTY on my laptop, productivity-focussed split, and gaming-focussed split that gets annoying sometimes). At the time I built it, it seemed like a cheaper way of checking if one of these things would help than grabbing a Kinesis. I've been kind of thinking about upgrading for a while though, and there's an accretion of new features building up that are starting to make the idea seem a little less wasteful. The new generation designs like this that have an integrated screen for extra data _really_ appeal (my Ergodox is pre-RGB/backlighting, so you can't tell the keyboard's state at a glance); that, combined with hot-swappable key sockets, novel input mechanisms (rotary encoders for volume/Lightroom control!), the sort of tenting support the ZSA Moonlander supports etc. are all pretty exciting. I've never quite managed to convince myself to spend time on keyboards as a hobby, but I'm so grateful others love it.
farnsworth 5y ago
I have the Moonlander split keyboard, and absolutely love it. But the problem I constantly have with split keyboards is keeping them aligned the right way. Each half is constantly being pushed and shifted or rotated slightly on my desk so it feels like the alignment is a little off every time I sit down to use it. The infinite adjustability is definitely a perk but I feel like I should be taping them down once I get them set up
- achikin 5y ago
  It is not because of the split design - it’s because of the ortholinear layout. Classical staggered layout is much more tolerant to the posture and angle.
  - finnh 5y ago
    Oh this explains it! I tried a Moonlander and really didn't jive with it, then tried a KinesiS Freestyle and love it. Upon reflection, it's the ortholinear layout that made the Moonlander so much less comfortable for me.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    I realized the pros for staggered layout!
  - __mharrison__ 5y ago
    How so? Can you elaborate on this?
    - achikin 5y ago
      That is my observation. I have Ergodox, Planck and X-Bows, all of them are non-staggered. I noticed that I had an urge to adjust either keyboard or my posture constantly. On the other hand I’m comfortable with a traditional staggered keyboard at any angle and position. Non-staggered is very comfortable as soon as you keep you fingers along the columns. But is you move a little bit - you have to adjust the keyboard.
  - 5y ago
Symbiote 5y ago
I have a gallery of split keyboards, including this one. It's useful if you need an overview of what's available. I have an ErgoDash with a Dvorak layout and a 3D printed adjustable tenting stand. The Djinn is fairly similar, though the additions are features I don't care for (encoders, screens, LEDs). I've bought most of the parts to make a Lagrange, but still need to order the PCBs. I expect this to be an improvement on the ErgoDash, since I can include the missing keys (F1-F12 etc). Just buying a Kinesis Advantage2 would probably have been a whole lot less effort. https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ (And a discussion from nine months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26179311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26179311 )
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Wow. That’s quite the collection. I thought it was a splurge to buy my first Kinesis about 22 years ago. Since upgraded it to the USB (always the Advantage style) and love it.
  - Cullinet 5y ago
    ergonomic keyboard design surely is begging someone to write their thesis on the subjects involved with figuring out the difference between individual preference and the non empirical / subjective measures of preference and selection priority. I have always believed that the problem with ergonomic keyboard design could be solved for a majority of cases with one single design, optimised over a number of generations rapidly in about 3 years (or a more optimal period allowing you to iterate retail cycles and customer reviews and reactions as well as observations in actual use) and make a excellent long term investment for a relatively small amount of capital. the capital amount of course wouldn't be small in every individual view of small, but I can definitely imagine the required capital investment can be kept in check within less than -$3mm and return overall very well real inflation adjusted over a very decent length of time. (i tend to presume the existence of very strong IP law knowledge in the design and development and management team - this i would like to be overlapping roles - but about one third of the capital in any project like this would be allocated by me to legal and IP rights protection in any event because you don't want to be responsible for that with only product development experience no matter how well educated in IP law and practice you are . Product liability and environmental and ethical concerns would receive a significant budget today as well , especially when everything is outsourced (Logitech since 30 years effectively in the beginning ...)
__mharrison__ 5y ago
I realize that the positioning of the ErgoDox thumb clusters aren't for everyone (I only use the two big keys), but I use the thumb keys a lot. In combination with QMK, my thumbs work a lot harder, but I feel it is much more efficient. This design lacks the "thumb power".
- donio 5y ago
  Same for me, the ability to offload the most frequently used keys (space, return, backspace, shift, ctrl/meta/super) from the pinkies to the thumbs is probably the greatest benefit of a good split design (Datahand in my case)
stevage 5y ago
Anyone know what the use case is for the little LED display on each side?
- tzarc 5y ago
  Right now, none really -- it's a hardware enablement testbed, and really only shows a handful of information, such as Caps/Num/Scroll and what layer you're using. With QMK we get a lot of requests for "how do I display this", "how do I show that", so it's more a case of making sure it supports most of those scenarios. Sadly with the silicon shortages, not a lot of people are getting the chance to build them... I'm sure we'd see some interesting usages if/when this display stuff becomes a bit more mainstream.
tzarc 5y ago
Oh hey, that's me!
- floatboth 5y ago
  So.. why the screens?
- mgarfias 5y ago
  How would I get the boards?
  - tzarc 5y ago
    At the moment I'd advise against it somewhat -- the silicon shortages have basically made the MCU and a couple of other parts unobtainable. That said, I got mine from everyone's favourite PCB manufacturer: JLCPCB. All the parts can be found on the BOM: https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/Djinn-BOM.md https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/Djinn-BOM.md
    - saltyfamiliar 5y ago
      I see the parts list but are there build instructions anywhere?
      - tzarc 5y ago
        Not really; it's a case of soldering on the parts as per the iBOM: https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/bom/ibom.html https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/bom/ibom.html Only a couple of parts are actually dependent on the side you're soldering (and are listed on the parts BOM), virtually everything else is aligned in such a way that it can be soldered onto either side.
spindle 5y ago
In case anyone wants to program this (or any other keyboard) without QMK, there's kmonad: https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad
bbkane 5y ago
I guess I'm a bit odd, but what I really want is a split version of Apples Magic Keyboard- extremely thin/flat and small, but with enough keys that I don't have to learn layers to type. I'm using a Kinesis Freestyle2 keyboard now, and, while I appreciate how comfy it is, it takes up a good portion of my desk.
- whynolayers 5y ago
  You're already using 'layers' to type uppercase, symbols, accented characters, etc. A keyboard would easily double (or more) the numbers of keys to not have 'layers'.
  - rgoulter 5y ago
    I think layers are great. Though, when someone says "I don't want a keyboard with layers", it's obtuse to say "you don't want the shift key?!". Many things in tech are trade-offs. There are big benefits which come with using layering, but there are also some downsides. It's entirely reasonable for someone to prefer a more traditional keyboard layout, over a more niche keyboard layout which would take some time to get used to.
    - isitobtuse 5y ago
      Who said “you don’t want the shift key?” That’s right, only you. Good strawperson argument. It’s not obtuse to frame “layers” into something the person is probably already familiar with. Even if they still end up disliking layers (that’s fine!) it helps bridge the gap on different keyboard layouts.
  - dr_kiszonka 5y ago
    I am frustrated that many of these new, innovative keyboards require people to use layers to access arrow keys, which I think would not be good for my hands. Besides reducing the number of keys, are layers good for anything else? Are there any websites with layers designed for specific editors, etc?
podiki 5y ago
I've been eyeing the Djinn for a while, a "while" that corresponds with the crazy chip shortage. So I've put it on the back burner, but anyone build this or another keyboard recently? How's it look for the parts these days?
csjr 5y ago
Cool! I like the knobs! Where are you getting your parts (PCB, etc) and/or keyboards assembled?
- tzarc 5y ago
  I assembled mine by hand. I'm not sure a lot of PCB assembly houses would like reversible PCBs.
nine_k 5y ago
I very much like the idea of the joysticks under thumbs. Modifiers don't need to be keys! Space and finger motions are instantly saved; such a great idea! But likely it requires certain patches in the QMK code. This also obviously eliminates the need for mouse, very useful. I also like the straight columns and intensive staggering, they help (me) type without looking more easily. What I find extraneous is all these screens and LEDs. I see that for many such keyboards are for showing off; for me they are a tool, and the very point of touch typing is that I don't need to keep the keys in my field of view!
- hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
  I use LEDs as state indicators similar to caps/scroll/num lock, but in my case it’s obvious what state I’m in without even looking, due to the brightness (enough I can see from the corner of my eyes). State is more important due to the use of vim-like layers
- __mharrison__ 5y ago
  I would be interested in hearing feedback on using the thumb knobs as joysticks. What are people using them for?
josalhor 5y ago
I recently invested on a YMDK 75% split keyboard. After many hours of research on switch type (because I don't like noise or high pressure on keys) and some modding to the height lower it turned out pretty good. Would recommend to anyone whose livelihood depends on what they type on the computer.
iamevn 5y ago
I'm very happy with the matias ergopro and am finishing up a design for a slightly larger than full size split keyboard using matias (alps style) switches. I'm adding an extra inner column on the left and right sides with duplicated keys from the other side. I got used to using either hand for those central keys on a normal keyboard so being able to use them that way on a split seems like a good thing to me. Since it's bigger, it'll be a bit pricey to build so I'm tempted to throw together one of those tiny keyboards with the reversible PCBs just for fun.
tlhunter 5y ago
I suddenly hate my Ergodox Infinity...
herpderperator 5y ago
Any videos of someone typing fast on keyboards like this?
- rgoulter 5y ago
  If you can excuse the low quality, here's a video I recorded typing on a smaller split keyboard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Msizi1cJ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Msizi1cJ4 I also have videos typing a more difficult symbol-heavy JavaScript program. I was as the same slow speed between a standard keyboard, and this little split keyboard.
- memco 5y ago
  No videos, but I have a Lily58 Pro, which is very similar to this. It took me a few weeks to figure out a good layout, but after that I've been typing at full speed ever since.
marcrosoft 5y ago
PSA: anyone looking for better ergonomics and want truly split distance, try two keyboards plugged in at the same time. It’s a game changer and doesn’t cost hundreds of dollars. Linux works out of the box. There’s ways to make the modifier keys shared for mac.
jrumbut 5y ago
Is this keyboard sold anywhere? It looks really cool but the same hand problems that make it appealing make assembly completely impractical.
codetrotter 5y ago
I have the ErgoDox EZ Shine split keyboard and use it with a custom Dvorak layout that I created for it inspired by the layout of the keyboard I used to use before it, the TypeMatrix 2030 USB. My custom Dvorak layout for the ErgoDox EZ Shine: https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak
folkrav 5y ago
Been using a Keebio Iris[0] (here's my build[1]) for the last 3 years and so, which I've initially built in an attempt to mitigate some nerve pressure issues in the elbow (I have ulnar nerve hypermobility in both arms on top of relatively broad shoulders, so common typing position gets really uncomfortable/painful over time). Long story short, combined with some hand/shoulder strengthening exercises and proper posture, it definitely helps alleviate the pressure. [0] https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard - looks like the pcb design got a couple of updates since I've built mine, like onboard controller and usb-c, etc. [1] https://imgur.com/a/k72o4p3
Venn1 5y ago
I really like the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard. It's ergonomic, doesn't blink, and the keys STFU when you are typing.
zmix 5y ago
If I could get an ErgoDox with Trackpoint, I would be all set. Sadly, it seems, they do not have a Trackpoint integration. The only commercially available I know is the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard V2, but I like the ErgoDox more. And they offer it only as an addon device.
- jsonau 5y ago
  Are you referring to controlling the mouse cursor? If so, it's possible with "Mouse control" in Oryx. I have a layer(Media 4) that is activated when holding a specific key on my default layer so I can control my cursor: https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/bdYBP/latest/0 https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/bdYBP/latest/0
  - nmlt 5y ago
    Pretty sure they’re referrring to the knob in the middle of the keyboard for mouse control many thinkpads have.
    - zmix 5y ago
      Yes, that's what I meant: Thinkpads, typically, have a little red knob in the keyboard center, which is a tactile device, that lets the user control the mouse cursor very precisely. The patent has expired and this is why some third party vendors started producing them.
_hao 5y ago
Cool! My ZSA Moonlander is actually going to arrive today so I'm pretty excited! First time to try a split a keyboard.
h3mb3 5y ago
Where are all the 75% ortholinear split keyboards? All the super-duper ergo boards have very few keys and/or a strange layout (like this Djinn). Currently the best keyboard for my left forearm's RSI has been Mistel Barocco MD770 [1] but I've recently been aware how the staggering maybe forces the fingers to travel in slightly unnatural ways. These videos [2][3] from Ben Vallack demonstrate this nicely. Thus, I'd like to test an ortholinear one, but with all the normal 75%/tenkeyless board keys in place. I personally don't need to optimize the right hand keys as much so I'm not interested in learning an oherwise crazy new layout just to test out if the ortholinearity helps. And, I really like having the split since keeping two halves of the board further apart helps keeping my posture in control. But this combo seems to be difficult to find. [1] https://www.mistelkeyboard.com/products/d11cf7a73da49468e2a530b4cf18e76c https://www.mistelkeyboard.com/products/d11cf7a73da49468e2a5... [2] https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8 https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8 [3] https://youtu.be/1C2bJkzIaPE https://youtu.be/1C2bJkzIaPE
- mleonhard 5y ago
  My RSI was mostly solved by switching from a split keyboard to a tenting keyboard (Goldtouch V2 at 30-degree tenting angle) and a vertical mouse (Evoluent). Then it was finally solved by strength training of my back and shoulders (10 sessions of "Body Pump" fitness class and ongoing maintenance). Maybe those things would work for you, too?
- Symbiote 5y ago
  There are not many. You could try the X-Bows Knight / Nature, although that's still a rearrangement of the right side keys. If you deselect "Traditional" and set the minimum keys to about 78, you'll see how few options there are: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
tarcio 5y ago
OK,noob here - never tried a split keyboard. What advantages are there of using one? I mean they look great - some of them a bit gimmicky, some very experimental. Do they actually fit a purpose?
- rgoulter 5y ago
  Several advantages: - More keys for the thumbs allows for using the thumbs more instead of the (weaker) pinky fingers. - I like symmetrical keyboards; it's more comfortable than the standard row-stagger. - The custom firmware has some nice features which allow for reducing hand movement. e.g. putting a numpad layer where your hands rest. e.g. I have "go to prev/next virtual desktop" when I hit the keys "cv" or "m,". - The keyboard firmware is on the keyboard itself. This is nice if you switch between different computers. - More desk space for e.g. notes between the split halves. Disadvantages: - In the same way that e.g. a Vim config can be ultra-personalised to the point no one else can use it, the same applies to split keyboards. - Mechanical keys can be quite loud. - The keyboards are either DIY, expensive, or both. They can be quite difficult to acquire. - It can take some time to adjust to a new layout. Moreso if you've not done per-finger typing practice with e.g. Dvorak layout. - It's more difficult to use with "keyboard + mouse" programs like Blender, CAD, or videogames, which use QWERTY keybindings. - As with any external keyboard, difficult/awkward to use with laptops e.g. at a cafe.
- Ndymium 5y ago
  The biggest advantage is freely positioning the halves to suit your personal preference. You might have them in a /\ arrangement next to each other, or | | so that they match the position of your shoulders. I'm currently sitting in a rocking chair with my laptop on a small desk and the halves of my split keyboard on my legs, which works surprisingly well. When I'm on the move without an ergonomic desk, I tend to put my laptop on a cardboard box to avoid having to look down all day, and my keyboard halves on each side. It helps me avoid neck strain. For me, getting a split keyboard was a matter of protecting my hands. I felt strain in my wrists and fingers when using a regular keyboard all day. With a split keyboard my wrists can stay straight and I was forced to learn the correct finger positions. I no longer use a mouse, but instead my keyboard's mouse layer keys, so I have no reason to move my hands away from the home position. Of course most of the split keyboards, being made for enthusiasts, also contain a lot of other features like customisable firmwares and such.
CTDOCodebases 5y ago
I really wish someone would make a modular kit for split ergo boards. Column stagger and thumb cluster placement are so personal and anyone switching to split ergo boards is forced to make compromises or spend insane amounts of money until they find the exact combo that suits them.

214 points by rolph 5y ago

gfody 5y ago

I wonder can you use the the two knobs to control the mouse etch-a-sketch style?

LeoPanthera 5y ago
Left knob for bearing, right knob for speed.
- 3np 5y ago
  This made me chuckle. And reminded me of https://uxdesign.cc/the-worst-volume-control-ui-in-the-world-60713dc86950 https://uxdesign.cc/the-worst-volume-control-ui-in-the-world...
- aasasd 5y ago
  Now I gotta somehow try that with a gamepad. Driving simulation, coming to your desktop. Traverse the lands of hyperlinks, deliver files from window to window.
sleepybrett 5y ago
QMK supports that.
twalla 5y ago
QMK does have mouse support so you could map each encoder to an axis for the mouse I think. https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_pointing_device https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_pointing_device
iamevn 5y ago
here's a build log for basically that: https://mitxela.com/projects/etch_mouse https://mitxela.com/projects/etch_mouse (except on an ATtiny85 instead of part of a keyboard)

sleepybrett 5y ago

YAIC (yet another iris clone)

opan 5y ago
The Djinn layout is a bit different, closer to a Pinky4.
tzarc 5y ago
Full disclosure: I started my foray into split keyboards with an Iris. ...but it didn't have all the keys I wanted, thus the Djinn.

aasasd 5y ago

I hoped that someone finally got the right idea, and those djinn-pads are touch-pads. Alas, no such luck.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ddlutz 5y ago
I would love something like that, either touch trackpad or some trackball with easy way to left click and right click. No more switching between "two different input devices".
tzarc 5y ago
In a week or so, QMK will pick up a whole bunch of new support for pointing devices -- Djinn's open-source, so if you're keen you can swap a display out for a Cirque touchpad for instance.
Symbiote 5y ago
Maybe this, but I haven't looked at it beyond the title: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/qrm3i1/disconnect72_wireless_hotswappable_split_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/qrm3i1...

alanfranz 5y ago

I would love something like the old SK-6000 keyboard ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/264750292234 https://www.ebay.com/itm/264750292234 ), maybe without the numpad, but with all other keys, and possibly mechanical (silent) switches. It seems that nowadays we get either extremely peculiar split keyboards (without F-Keys, PgUp/PgDown) or something just doesn't feel right (PgUp/PgDown keys aligned vertically instead of horizontally, cursor keys with strange alignments and positioning, et cetera). I think that a "normal keyboard just with a certain angle in the middle" would be simple enough and great.

8589934591 5y ago
Have a look at this, it's almost close to what you're looking for https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
- alanfranz 5y ago
  Is this a joke?
  - 8589934591 5y ago
    I don't know why you would think that. I didn't mean it that way. It certainly is a minimalistic keyboard but a good one.
Zitrax 5y ago
I have the same issue, earlier I was using a Logitech Comfort keyboard: https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/23-126-121-07.JPG https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/23-1... which I loved, but have not found a good replacement, they are either split with a smaller angle or are those peculiar fully split ones as you mention.
aasasd 5y ago
What you describe is just MS Natural 4000. There's also MS Sculpt, with better keys: still rubberdomed, but less jiggly and way less clacky. The crowded home—pagedown column is actually alright once you get used to it, and I really don't use ‘delete’ and ‘insert’ much. However, the function-or-media switch is atrocious, pure disgrace as a design decision. I'm using ‘USB Overdrive’ to map ‘calculator’ to Fn instead, but it's still not the same. Might map the separate numpad, once I find batteries for it.

js8 5y ago

I am considering properly learning an ergonomic keyboard, but I like the minimalist ones - like the GergoPlex. They are more affordable and there is something appealing in minimizing the finger movement.

jedimind 5y ago
Beautiful keyboard, I have never heard of GergoPlex before. I would buy it in a heartbeat if wireless versions were available.
- yoavm 5y ago
  Search for the Corne-ish Zen, I think you'd like it.
  - jedimind 5y ago
    Yo that one is sick!!! Love it, thanks so much for suggesting it <3
  - __mharrison__ 5y ago
    Looks nice but I don't want wireless. (Retro grouch)
    - zmix 5y ago
      Also, wireless makes it impossible to have a USB hub on the keyboard, which is nice to free up clutter on the desk. Otherwise I'd need an extra hub.
- Fetiorin 5y ago
  You can build your own given soldering skills/willingness to learn. Ferris Sweep (PCB is open source) with nice!nano controller.
__mharrison__ 5y ago
Long time ergodox user here. I was considering getting a GergoPlex before Covid as I was travelling a bit for work. I even put a "GergoPlex" layer on my ergodox to practice. However, it looks like they no longer sell the "heavy" and with Covid I haven't been travelling, no practicing the Gergo chords.

Separo 5y ago

I've found that the annoying thing with these floating split keyboards is that you don't develop the muscle memory because the keys are always in a slightly different position each time it moves around. You need a bracket to keep the halves in exactly the same spot every time when you're in split mode in order to get that muscle memory.

fleaaaa 5y ago
There's homing h/j key for it, though I rarely need it.
ruffrey 5y ago
I had this problem. Bought some small rubber bump things for home row keys. Quite easy now.
hossbeast 5y ago
I don't have a problem with it. The muscle memory takes wrist orientation into account possibly?
StephenJGL 5y ago
I would recommend a Microsoft Sculpt if you want the split without the hassle.
- Agingcoder 5y ago
  I have a kinesis edge for the same reason.
toxik 5y ago
I partially agree, if you’ve moved your hands away it can be difficult to “relocalize”. It’s not that big a deal though, I find. My main problem now is that I want Apple level low travel (and low profile) but also split. Guess I’ll wind up building my own eventually.
__mharrison__ 5y ago
That hasn't been my experience. (Sample size one). I also use the Norman layout on my ErgoDox, but Qwerty on normal keyboards. Hasn't really been an issue (other than learning Norman).

stunt 5y ago

I tried building custom keyboards! It was a lot of fun waiting for parts, assembling and customizing them. And if nothing it was the best soldering training ever cos I got really good at soldering in the end.

drudoo 5y ago

Reminds me of my Lily58. Looks pretty cool but those screens are huge.

memco 5y ago
Yeah, I have a Lily58 and this appeals to me since I would actually like one more column. Mine was pre-made and has an encoder where I would like my "[" to be so this would also help solve a problem I'm not too well equipped to solve. And since I'm not really up to procuring the equipment and time to learn to solder I would love to buy one of these pre-made: anyone know where I can buy a pre-built version?
- drudoo 5y ago
  I don’t see anywhere to buy a pre made one. As far as I can see, no shop even sells the kits to make them yourself.
  - detaro 5y ago
    https://ergomech.store/shop/product/lily58-3 https://ergomech.store/shop/product/lily58-3 - as far sa I understand since it has hotswap sockets you don't need to solder if you get the "pre-assembled" version, but still need to get your own switches and keycaps.
    - drudoo 5y ago
      Of course you can buy Lily58 but I was talking about Djinn from the OP.
      - detaro 5y ago
        ah, oops. my bad, misread the subthread.
        drudoo 5y ago
        No worries. I already have a Lily58 and a couple of other split boards, so the Djinn is pretty interesting.

frio 5y ago

I'm RSI-adjacent (never diagnosed, but flat keyboards give me pangs after a while) and have a ~6 year old home-made Ergodox currently, and really like it (though I have to admit, there's a definite cognitive overhead switching between QWERTY on my laptop, productivity-focussed split, and gaming-focussed split that gets annoying sometimes). At the time I built it, it seemed like a cheaper way of checking if one of these things would help than grabbing a Kinesis. I've been kind of thinking about upgrading for a while though, and there's an accretion of new features building up that are starting to make the idea seem a little less wasteful. The new generation designs like this that have an integrated screen for extra data _really_ appeal (my Ergodox is pre-RGB/backlighting, so you can't tell the keyboard's state at a glance); that, combined with hot-swappable key sockets, novel input mechanisms (rotary encoders for volume/Lightroom control!), the sort of tenting support the ZSA Moonlander supports etc. are all pretty exciting. I've never quite managed to convince myself to spend time on keyboards as a hobby, but I'm so grateful others love it.

farnsworth 5y ago

I have the Moonlander split keyboard, and absolutely love it. But the problem I constantly have with split keyboards is keeping them aligned the right way. Each half is constantly being pushed and shifted or rotated slightly on my desk so it feels like the alignment is a little off every time I sit down to use it. The infinite adjustability is definitely a perk but I feel like I should be taping them down once I get them set up

achikin 5y ago
It is not because of the split design - it’s because of the ortholinear layout. Classical staggered layout is much more tolerant to the posture and angle.
- finnh 5y ago
  Oh this explains it! I tried a Moonlander and really didn't jive with it, then tried a KinesiS Freestyle and love it. Upon reflection, it's the ortholinear layout that made the Moonlander so much less comfortable for me.
- fomine3 5y ago
  I realized the pros for staggered layout!
- __mharrison__ 5y ago
  How so? Can you elaborate on this?
  - achikin 5y ago
    That is my observation. I have Ergodox, Planck and X-Bows, all of them are non-staggered. I noticed that I had an urge to adjust either keyboard or my posture constantly. On the other hand I’m comfortable with a traditional staggered keyboard at any angle and position. Non-staggered is very comfortable as soon as you keep you fingers along the columns. But is you move a little bit - you have to adjust the keyboard.
- 5y ago

Symbiote 5y ago

I have a gallery of split keyboards, including this one. It's useful if you need an overview of what's available. I have an ErgoDash with a Dvorak layout and a 3D printed adjustable tenting stand. The Djinn is fairly similar, though the additions are features I don't care for (encoders, screens, LEDs). I've bought most of the parts to make a Lagrange, but still need to order the PCBs. I expect this to be an improvement on the ErgoDash, since I can include the missing keys (F1-F12 etc). Just buying a Kinesis Advantage2 would probably have been a whole lot less effort. https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ (And a discussion from nine months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26179311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26179311 )

sokoloff 5y ago
Wow. That’s quite the collection. I thought it was a splurge to buy my first Kinesis about 22 years ago. Since upgraded it to the USB (always the Advantage style) and love it.
- Cullinet 5y ago
  ergonomic keyboard design surely is begging someone to write their thesis on the subjects involved with figuring out the difference between individual preference and the non empirical / subjective measures of preference and selection priority. I have always believed that the problem with ergonomic keyboard design could be solved for a majority of cases with one single design, optimised over a number of generations rapidly in about 3 years (or a more optimal period allowing you to iterate retail cycles and customer reviews and reactions as well as observations in actual use) and make a excellent long term investment for a relatively small amount of capital. the capital amount of course wouldn't be small in every individual view of small, but I can definitely imagine the required capital investment can be kept in check within less than -$3mm and return overall very well real inflation adjusted over a very decent length of time. (i tend to presume the existence of very strong IP law knowledge in the design and development and management team - this i would like to be overlapping roles - but about one third of the capital in any project like this would be allocated by me to legal and IP rights protection in any event because you don't want to be responsible for that with only product development experience no matter how well educated in IP law and practice you are . Product liability and environmental and ethical concerns would receive a significant budget today as well , especially when everything is outsourced (Logitech since 30 years effectively in the beginning ...)

__mharrison__ 5y ago

I realize that the positioning of the ErgoDox thumb clusters aren't for everyone (I only use the two big keys), but I use the thumb keys a lot. In combination with QMK, my thumbs work a lot harder, but I feel it is much more efficient. This design lacks the "thumb power".

donio 5y ago
Same for me, the ability to offload the most frequently used keys (space, return, backspace, shift, ctrl/meta/super) from the pinkies to the thumbs is probably the greatest benefit of a good split design (Datahand in my case)

stevage 5y ago

Anyone know what the use case is for the little LED display on each side?

tzarc 5y ago
Right now, none really -- it's a hardware enablement testbed, and really only shows a handful of information, such as Caps/Num/Scroll and what layer you're using. With QMK we get a lot of requests for "how do I display this", "how do I show that", so it's more a case of making sure it supports most of those scenarios. Sadly with the silicon shortages, not a lot of people are getting the chance to build them... I'm sure we'd see some interesting usages if/when this display stuff becomes a bit more mainstream.

tzarc 5y ago

Oh hey, that's me!

floatboth 5y ago
So.. why the screens?
mgarfias 5y ago
How would I get the boards?
- tzarc 5y ago
  At the moment I'd advise against it somewhat -- the silicon shortages have basically made the MCU and a couple of other parts unobtainable. That said, I got mine from everyone's favourite PCB manufacturer: JLCPCB. All the parts can be found on the BOM: https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/Djinn-BOM.md https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/Djinn-BOM.md
  - saltyfamiliar 5y ago
    I see the parts list but are there build instructions anywhere?
    - tzarc 5y ago
      Not really; it's a case of soldering on the parts as per the iBOM: https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/bom/ibom.html https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/bom/ibom.html Only a couple of parts are actually dependent on the side you're soldering (and are listed on the parts BOM), virtually everything else is aligned in such a way that it can be soldered onto either side.

spindle 5y ago

In case anyone wants to program this (or any other keyboard) without QMK, there's kmonad: https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad

bbkane 5y ago

I guess I'm a bit odd, but what I really want is a split version of Apples Magic Keyboard- extremely thin/flat and small, but with enough keys that I don't have to learn layers to type. I'm using a Kinesis Freestyle2 keyboard now, and, while I appreciate how comfy it is, it takes up a good portion of my desk.

whynolayers 5y ago
You're already using 'layers' to type uppercase, symbols, accented characters, etc. A keyboard would easily double (or more) the numbers of keys to not have 'layers'.
- rgoulter 5y ago
  I think layers are great. Though, when someone says "I don't want a keyboard with layers", it's obtuse to say "you don't want the shift key?!". Many things in tech are trade-offs. There are big benefits which come with using layering, but there are also some downsides. It's entirely reasonable for someone to prefer a more traditional keyboard layout, over a more niche keyboard layout which would take some time to get used to.
  - isitobtuse 5y ago
    Who said “you don’t want the shift key?” That’s right, only you. Good strawperson argument. It’s not obtuse to frame “layers” into something the person is probably already familiar with. Even if they still end up disliking layers (that’s fine!) it helps bridge the gap on different keyboard layouts.
- dr_kiszonka 5y ago
  I am frustrated that many of these new, innovative keyboards require people to use layers to access arrow keys, which I think would not be good for my hands. Besides reducing the number of keys, are layers good for anything else? Are there any websites with layers designed for specific editors, etc?

podiki 5y ago

I've been eyeing the Djinn for a while, a "while" that corresponds with the crazy chip shortage. So I've put it on the back burner, but anyone build this or another keyboard recently? How's it look for the parts these days?

csjr 5y ago

Cool! I like the knobs! Where are you getting your parts (PCB, etc) and/or keyboards assembled?

tzarc 5y ago
I assembled mine by hand. I'm not sure a lot of PCB assembly houses would like reversible PCBs.

nine_k 5y ago

I very much like the idea of the joysticks under thumbs. Modifiers don't need to be keys! Space and finger motions are instantly saved; such a great idea! But likely it requires certain patches in the QMK code. This also obviously eliminates the need for mouse, very useful. I also like the straight columns and intensive staggering, they help (me) type without looking more easily. What I find extraneous is all these screens and LEDs. I see that for many such keyboards are for showing off; for me they are a tool, and the very point of touch typing is that I don't need to keep the keys in my field of view!

hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
I use LEDs as state indicators similar to caps/scroll/num lock, but in my case it’s obvious what state I’m in without even looking, due to the brightness (enough I can see from the corner of my eyes). State is more important due to the use of vim-like layers
__mharrison__ 5y ago
I would be interested in hearing feedback on using the thumb knobs as joysticks. What are people using them for?

josalhor 5y ago

I recently invested on a YMDK 75% split keyboard. After many hours of research on switch type (because I don't like noise or high pressure on keys) and some modding to the height lower it turned out pretty good. Would recommend to anyone whose livelihood depends on what they type on the computer.

iamevn 5y ago

I'm very happy with the matias ergopro and am finishing up a design for a slightly larger than full size split keyboard using matias (alps style) switches. I'm adding an extra inner column on the left and right sides with duplicated keys from the other side. I got used to using either hand for those central keys on a normal keyboard so being able to use them that way on a split seems like a good thing to me. Since it's bigger, it'll be a bit pricey to build so I'm tempted to throw together one of those tiny keyboards with the reversible PCBs just for fun.

tlhunter 5y ago

I suddenly hate my Ergodox Infinity...

herpderperator 5y ago

Any videos of someone typing fast on keyboards like this?

rgoulter 5y ago
If you can excuse the low quality, here's a video I recorded typing on a smaller split keyboard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Msizi1cJ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Msizi1cJ4 I also have videos typing a more difficult symbol-heavy JavaScript program. I was as the same slow speed between a standard keyboard, and this little split keyboard.
memco 5y ago
No videos, but I have a Lily58 Pro, which is very similar to this. It took me a few weeks to figure out a good layout, but after that I've been typing at full speed ever since.

marcrosoft 5y ago

PSA: anyone looking for better ergonomics and want truly split distance, try two keyboards plugged in at the same time. It’s a game changer and doesn’t cost hundreds of dollars. Linux works out of the box. There’s ways to make the modifier keys shared for mac.

jrumbut 5y ago

Is this keyboard sold anywhere? It looks really cool but the same hand problems that make it appealing make assembly completely impractical.

codetrotter 5y ago

I have the ErgoDox EZ Shine split keyboard and use it with a custom Dvorak layout that I created for it inspired by the layout of the keyboard I used to use before it, the TypeMatrix 2030 USB. My custom Dvorak layout for the ErgoDox EZ Shine: https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak

folkrav 5y ago

Been using a Keebio Iris[0] (here's my build[1]) for the last 3 years and so, which I've initially built in an attempt to mitigate some nerve pressure issues in the elbow (I have ulnar nerve hypermobility in both arms on top of relatively broad shoulders, so common typing position gets really uncomfortable/painful over time). Long story short, combined with some hand/shoulder strengthening exercises and proper posture, it definitely helps alleviate the pressure. [0] https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard - looks like the pcb design got a couple of updates since I've built mine, like onboard controller and usb-c, etc. [1] https://imgur.com/a/k72o4p3

Venn1 5y ago

I really like the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard. It's ergonomic, doesn't blink, and the keys STFU when you are typing.

zmix 5y ago

If I could get an ErgoDox with Trackpoint, I would be all set. Sadly, it seems, they do not have a Trackpoint integration. The only commercially available I know is the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard V2, but I like the ErgoDox more. And they offer it only as an addon device.

jsonau 5y ago
Are you referring to controlling the mouse cursor? If so, it's possible with "Mouse control" in Oryx. I have a layer(Media 4) that is activated when holding a specific key on my default layer so I can control my cursor: https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/bdYBP/latest/0 https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/bdYBP/latest/0
- nmlt 5y ago
  Pretty sure they’re referrring to the knob in the middle of the keyboard for mouse control many thinkpads have.
  - zmix 5y ago
    Yes, that's what I meant: Thinkpads, typically, have a little red knob in the keyboard center, which is a tactile device, that lets the user control the mouse cursor very precisely. The patent has expired and this is why some third party vendors started producing them.

_hao 5y ago

Cool! My ZSA Moonlander is actually going to arrive today so I'm pretty excited! First time to try a split a keyboard.

h3mb3 5y ago

Where are all the 75% ortholinear split keyboards? All the super-duper ergo boards have very few keys and/or a strange layout (like this Djinn). Currently the best keyboard for my left forearm's RSI has been Mistel Barocco MD770 [1] but I've recently been aware how the staggering maybe forces the fingers to travel in slightly unnatural ways. These videos [2][3] from Ben Vallack demonstrate this nicely. Thus, I'd like to test an ortholinear one, but with all the normal 75%/tenkeyless board keys in place. I personally don't need to optimize the right hand keys as much so I'm not interested in learning an oherwise crazy new layout just to test out if the ortholinearity helps. And, I really like having the split since keeping two halves of the board further apart helps keeping my posture in control. But this combo seems to be difficult to find. [1] https://www.mistelkeyboard.com/products/d11cf7a73da49468e2a530b4cf18e76c https://www.mistelkeyboard.com/products/d11cf7a73da49468e2a5... [2] https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8 https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8 [3] https://youtu.be/1C2bJkzIaPE https://youtu.be/1C2bJkzIaPE

mleonhard 5y ago
My RSI was mostly solved by switching from a split keyboard to a tenting keyboard (Goldtouch V2 at 30-degree tenting angle) and a vertical mouse (Evoluent). Then it was finally solved by strength training of my back and shoulders (10 sessions of "Body Pump" fitness class and ongoing maintenance). Maybe those things would work for you, too?
Symbiote 5y ago
There are not many. You could try the X-Bows Knight / Nature, although that's still a rearrangement of the right side keys. If you deselect "Traditional" and set the minimum keys to about 78, you'll see how few options there are: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

tarcio 5y ago

OK,noob here - never tried a split keyboard. What advantages are there of using one? I mean they look great - some of them a bit gimmicky, some very experimental. Do they actually fit a purpose?

rgoulter 5y ago
Several advantages: - More keys for the thumbs allows for using the thumbs more instead of the (weaker) pinky fingers. - I like symmetrical keyboards; it's more comfortable than the standard row-stagger. - The custom firmware has some nice features which allow for reducing hand movement. e.g. putting a numpad layer where your hands rest. e.g. I have "go to prev/next virtual desktop" when I hit the keys "cv" or "m,". - The keyboard firmware is on the keyboard itself. This is nice if you switch between different computers. - More desk space for e.g. notes between the split halves. Disadvantages: - In the same way that e.g. a Vim config can be ultra-personalised to the point no one else can use it, the same applies to split keyboards. - Mechanical keys can be quite loud. - The keyboards are either DIY, expensive, or both. They can be quite difficult to acquire. - It can take some time to adjust to a new layout. Moreso if you've not done per-finger typing practice with e.g. Dvorak layout. - It's more difficult to use with "keyboard + mouse" programs like Blender, CAD, or videogames, which use QWERTY keybindings. - As with any external keyboard, difficult/awkward to use with laptops e.g. at a cafe.
Ndymium 5y ago
The biggest advantage is freely positioning the halves to suit your personal preference. You might have them in a /\ arrangement next to each other, or | | so that they match the position of your shoulders. I'm currently sitting in a rocking chair with my laptop on a small desk and the halves of my split keyboard on my legs, which works surprisingly well. When I'm on the move without an ergonomic desk, I tend to put my laptop on a cardboard box to avoid having to look down all day, and my keyboard halves on each side. It helps me avoid neck strain. For me, getting a split keyboard was a matter of protecting my hands. I felt strain in my wrists and fingers when using a regular keyboard all day. With a split keyboard my wrists can stay straight and I was forced to learn the correct finger positions. I no longer use a mouse, but instead my keyboard's mouse layer keys, so I have no reason to move my hands away from the home position. Of course most of the split keyboards, being made for enthusiasts, also contain a lot of other features like customisable firmwares and such.

CTDOCodebases 5y ago

I really wish someone would make a modular kit for split ergo boards. Column stagger and thumb cluster placement are so personal and anyone switching to split ergo boards is forced to make compromises or spend insane amounts of money until they find the exact combo that suits them.