5 ms·

I'm inclined to believe the rust moderation team even though they haven't disclosed any specifics. The way the core team exercises absolute authority in spite o

I'm inclined to believe the rust moderation team even though they haven't disclosed any specifics. The way the core team exercises absolute authority in spite of community complaints has always rubbed me the wrong way. They present a facade of caring while crushing dissent. I do not recognize most of the core team these days, but Steve Klabnik and Ashley Williams stand out as likely culprits. I have personally submitted an email with the Rust moderation team to complain about Klabnik (and also mod-team member Andrew Gallant) and their abrasive behavior on reddit. Several months later I received a response stating they agreed that Klabnik went over the line and that they would warn him. Meanwhile Ashley "kill all men" Williams has an extremely lengthy reputation for her behavior in open source[1]. When it was announced she was joining the rust community team, there was a large push back from the community but the reddit/discourse mods censored everything[2][3] and the core team chose to let Williams join despite the complaints about her history of racism, sexism, and antagonism. [1]: https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK [2]: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/7nx3cm/announcement_ashley_williams_joins_the_core_team/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/7nx3cm/announcement_a... (https://archive.fo/ISXJF https://archive.fo/ISXJF) [3]: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/announcement-ashley-williams-joins-the-core-team-and-taking-lead-of-the-community-team/6453/24 https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/announcement-ashley-willia... (https://archive.fo/9yW9I https://archive.fo/9yW9I)

ignoramous 5y ago
> They present a facade of caring while crushing dissent. This is a rampant tactic on Wikipedia usually employed by experienced gatekeepers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CRUSH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CRUSH and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SQS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SQS
unanswered 5y ago
The problem with this theory is that the moderation team has been entirely supportive of Ms. 'Kill' so far, and actively works to silence dissent about her position in public Rust spaces. (Maybe not so much as the unofficial mods, but I personally was on the receiving end of llogiq's overreaction in /r/rust to any dissent.) I believe they would take her side in the dispute which Klabnik vaguebooked about a few months ago.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  The Rust Moderation Team is not the same as the r/rust "mods". Yes, this is confusing.
  - unanswered 5y ago
    They aren't the same, but llogiq is both. (Now just an /r/rust mod.)
mdoms 5y ago
None of the links you have provided shed any light because it's all deleted comments. Would you mind elaborating on Ashley Williams and her supposed "racism, sexism and antagonism"?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Angius 5y ago
  Here's the archived version: https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK
  - pzo 5y ago
    link doesn't work - return 403 Forbidden
    - nabakin 5y ago
      Archive.is blocks Cloudflare DNS. That may be why you can't access it.
    - Angius 5y ago
      Weird, it does work for me... Perhaps try other snapshots? https://archive.fo/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6whs2e/multiple_coc_violations_by_nodejs_board_member/ https://archive.fo/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6w...
    - Angius 5y ago
      Alternatively, from archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6whs2e/multiple_coc_violations_by_nodejs_board_member/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddi...
Angius 5y ago
The r/node thread has been deleted, but here's the archived version of it: https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK Archive.org version for good measure: https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6whs2e/multiple_coc_violations_by_nodejs_board_member/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddi...
- rust-throwaway1 5y ago
  Wow, I swear the r/node link worked when I posted it. Thanks for the archived version; I updated my comment.
timeon 5y ago
Does it have something to do with this: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1437441118745071617 https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1437441118745071617 ?
- CryZe 5y ago
  No, that has been deconfirmed on Reddit: Edit 2 https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/comment/hlne24d/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/comment/hlne24...
  - mlindner 5y ago
    That wasn't quite what they said. They basically said that this isn't about Amazon, not that it's about these specific people.
chias 5y ago
For what it's worth, Andrew Gallant ("BurntSushi", the author of that post) is probably the voice I most trust on the Internet today. For a long time now, he has demonstrated that he is extremely judicious, level-headed, and well-thought-out on any position I've ever seen him take. People are not always polite / nice to him, and he unfailingly responds kindly and honestly with a level of effort that is truly amazing. He consistently demonstrates that he truly cares on a personal level, even when the situation is "unfair" or that level of care isn't being reciprocated. All that to say: this message came from Andrew, and I believe it without question.
- paulgdp 5y ago
  Having read a great deal from him, I just want to confirm everything said about Andrew Gallant, and I absolutely trust him too! This blog post is a great testament to his human skills: https://blog.burntsushi.net/foss/ https://blog.burntsushi.net/foss/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cyber_kinetist 5y ago
But the mod team who resigned were precisely the ones behind moderating those Reddit/Discourse threads though. So I don't think there was animosity between the two teams from the start, but rather that tensions grew over the years until it became unmanageable. My interpretation is that the drama happening around the core team (like the things you've mentioned) gets increasingly overwhelming for the mod team to handle, leading to complaints against the core team for causing such drama (which they do not have the sufficient resources nor actual power to handle). This further escalates and devolves into a worse relationship between the two, leading to the resignation. From the thread on /r/rust one of the mods (different from the Rust's mods) talked about the relationship between the Core and the Mod team: Bans. We do not directly enforce bans, instead we ask Core to enforce them for us, and Core will double-check our work (though without access to the case, unless complainants are OK with that) -- essentially ensuring that we've done our due diligence, given a fair chance to the person, and that we're following the "escalation" procedure. Bans (bis). Core may enforce bans by themselves, then let us know. Involvement. When a Core Team Member is involved in a complaint, or a difficult relationship, we play our mediator/arbitrator role, stepping in and attempting to figure out the bottom of the issue and resolve it peacefully -- much like we do with any other Rust Team Member, really. This is maybe a workable agreement if the Core and the Mod team went along well, but currently it seems like that's not the case. The last clause (Involvement) basically tells that "we really don't want the two teams to fight, and things should be resolved with common sense". Now that this is way out of the window, perhaps it would be a good time for the Rust contributors to reevaluate their team structure.
- avinassh 5y ago
  > But the mod team who resigned were precisely the ones behind moderating those Reddit/Discourse threads though. I thought same as well, but seems reddit mods are different: > Please note that the official Rust moderation team is not the same organization as the team that moderates the subreddit here on /r/rust. The subreddit is an unofficial space, and though it is frequented by many who are affiliated with the project, it remains independent from the Rust project. The /r/rust mod team is not resigning from moderating the subreddit. > In the interest of disclosure, two of the moderators who are resigning from the official mod team are moderators here on this subreddit (matthieum and llogiq). They appear to have not resigned their position here, which I appreciate, since they're rather excellent moderators. However, in the interest of impartiality I am asking them to recuse themselves from taking moderator action in this thread (they may still comment as usual if they wish, of course). https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_team_resignation/hlne24d/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...

ignoramous 5y ago

> They present a facade of caring while crushing dissent. This is a rampant tactic on Wikipedia usually employed by experienced gatekeepers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CRUSH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CRUSH and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SQS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SQS

unanswered 5y ago

The problem with this theory is that the moderation team has been entirely supportive of Ms. 'Kill' so far, and actively works to silence dissent about her position in public Rust spaces. (Maybe not so much as the unofficial mods, but I personally was on the receiving end of llogiq's overreaction in /r/rust to any dissent.) I believe they would take her side in the dispute which Klabnik vaguebooked about a few months ago.

zozbot234 5y ago
The Rust Moderation Team is not the same as the r/rust "mods". Yes, this is confusing.
- unanswered 5y ago
  They aren't the same, but llogiq is both. (Now just an /r/rust mod.)

mdoms 5y ago

None of the links you have provided shed any light because it's all deleted comments. Would you mind elaborating on Ashley Williams and her supposed "racism, sexism and antagonism"?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Angius 5y ago
Here's the archived version: https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK
- pzo 5y ago
  link doesn't work - return 403 Forbidden
  - nabakin 5y ago
    Archive.is blocks Cloudflare DNS. That may be why you can't access it.
  - Angius 5y ago
    Weird, it does work for me... Perhaps try other snapshots? https://archive.fo/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6whs2e/multiple_coc_violations_by_nodejs_board_member/ https://archive.fo/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6w...
  - Angius 5y ago
    Alternatively, from archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6whs2e/multiple_coc_violations_by_nodejs_board_member/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddi...

Angius 5y ago

The r/node thread has been deleted, but here's the archived version of it: https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK Archive.org version for good measure: https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6whs2e/multiple_coc_violations_by_nodejs_board_member/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddi...

rust-throwaway1 5y ago
Wow, I swear the r/node link worked when I posted it. Thanks for the archived version; I updated my comment.

timeon 5y ago

Does it have something to do with this: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1437441118745071617 https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1437441118745071617 ?

CryZe 5y ago
No, that has been deconfirmed on Reddit: Edit 2 https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/comment/hlne24d/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/comment/hlne24...
- mlindner 5y ago
  That wasn't quite what they said. They basically said that this isn't about Amazon, not that it's about these specific people.

chias 5y ago

For what it's worth, Andrew Gallant ("BurntSushi", the author of that post) is probably the voice I most trust on the Internet today. For a long time now, he has demonstrated that he is extremely judicious, level-headed, and well-thought-out on any position I've ever seen him take. People are not always polite / nice to him, and he unfailingly responds kindly and honestly with a level of effort that is truly amazing. He consistently demonstrates that he truly cares on a personal level, even when the situation is "unfair" or that level of care isn't being reciprocated. All that to say: this message came from Andrew, and I believe it without question.

paulgdp 5y ago
Having read a great deal from him, I just want to confirm everything said about Andrew Gallant, and I absolutely trust him too! This blog post is a great testament to his human skills: https://blog.burntsushi.net/foss/ https://blog.burntsushi.net/foss/

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cyber_kinetist 5y ago

But the mod team who resigned were precisely the ones behind moderating those Reddit/Discourse threads though. So I don't think there was animosity between the two teams from the start, but rather that tensions grew over the years until it became unmanageable. My interpretation is that the drama happening around the core team (like the things you've mentioned) gets increasingly overwhelming for the mod team to handle, leading to complaints against the core team for causing such drama (which they do not have the sufficient resources nor actual power to handle). This further escalates and devolves into a worse relationship between the two, leading to the resignation. From the thread on /r/rust one of the mods (different from the Rust's mods) talked about the relationship between the Core and the Mod team: Bans. We do not directly enforce bans, instead we ask Core to enforce them for us, and Core will double-check our work (though without access to the case, unless complainants are OK with that) -- essentially ensuring that we've done our due diligence, given a fair chance to the person, and that we're following the "escalation" procedure. Bans (bis). Core may enforce bans by themselves, then let us know. Involvement. When a Core Team Member is involved in a complaint, or a difficult relationship, we play our mediator/arbitrator role, stepping in and attempting to figure out the bottom of the issue and resolve it peacefully -- much like we do with any other Rust Team Member, really. This is maybe a workable agreement if the Core and the Mod team went along well, but currently it seems like that's not the case. The last clause (Involvement) basically tells that "we really don't want the two teams to fight, and things should be resolved with common sense". Now that this is way out of the window, perhaps it would be a good time for the Rust contributors to reevaluate their team structure.

avinassh 5y ago
> But the mod team who resigned were precisely the ones behind moderating those Reddit/Discourse threads though. I thought same as well, but seems reddit mods are different: > Please note that the official Rust moderation team is not the same organization as the team that moderates the subreddit here on /r/rust. The subreddit is an unofficial space, and though it is frequented by many who are affiliated with the project, it remains independent from the Rust project. The /r/rust mod team is not resigning from moderating the subreddit. > In the interest of disclosure, two of the moderators who are resigning from the official mod team are moderators here on this subreddit (matthieum and llogiq). They appear to have not resigned their position here, which I appreciate, since they're rather excellent moderators. However, in the interest of impartiality I am asking them to recuse themselves from taking moderator action in this thread (they may still comment as usual if they wish, of course). https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_team_resignation/hlne24d/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...