4 ms·

The popularity and mindshare of Postgres really puzzles me. It’s so arcane and full of weird failure modes and gotchas. It feels like something from a 1980s mai

by api 5y ago

The popularity and mindshare of Postgres really puzzles me. It’s so arcane and full of weird failure modes and gotchas. It feels like something from a 1980s mainframe that would come with a bound “field manual.” We can have file systems like zfs that for all but maybe the largest and most exotic use cases are bulletproof and relatively easy to administrate. Why can’t we have SQL like this? I guess we do in the form of CockroachDB or Yugabyte, but Postgres has been so aggressively evangelized try selling someone on those. I know of one or two companies that use them but it’s a tough sell. There are tons of overpriced Postgres managed cloud offerings and consultancies, so my guess is that there is a heavy financially motivated astroturf campaign.

gmac 5y ago
First: have you used Postgres, and at what scale? Because that hasn't been my experience of it. Second: do you know something that's comparable but better?
- api 5y ago
  I should have been more detailed. Postgres works really well in single node configurations as long as you read up a bit on the weirdness around vacuuming. Usually you don't have to worry unless you are running write-heavy loads at large scale. HA Postgres is where things get frustrating and hairy. It's 2021. I should be able to set up a master-master multi-node database by running a second node and telling it where the first node is, and then you're done. Master with read-only backup should be similarly easy. If I shut down the "lead" node a backup should become leader automatically. I should be able to set this up in a day and not worry that it will fail to fail over properly in a real scenario because there are algorithms now like Raft consensus that are provably correct (provided you meet their requirements). IMHO this kind of easy clustering is a table stakes feature for anything billing itself as an "enterprise capable" database. The fact that HA Postgres requires me to think in 2021 is what makes me hate the thing. As near as I can tell this problem exists to make me buy managed HA Postgres at 1000% markup over compute/storage. I can't complain too much because it's free and it is very good for the things it does well. It's just puzzling to me that there is no canonical turn-key solution for this after so many years of so many people requiring it. Implementing Raft is far far easier than a lot of the other stuff that has been implemented in Postgres.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    What other DBs deliver single day, enterprise ready deployments with HA multi master? Do they include ACID and CAP tradeoffs similar to PostgreSQL? Is their query language as rich and transferable as SQL?
    - api 5y ago
      CockroachDB is pretty close. I wouldn't say I'd go fully into production in one day but the failover behavior is Raft based and easy to understand. I could prototype an enterprise cluster in a few hours without descending into the arcane bowels of secret pg_incantations and "I think this is set up right but not sure if it will actually recover" clunky shit.
  - whitepoplar 5y ago
    Check out pg_auto_failover! It's the easiest HA option for Postgres atm.
Scarbutt 5y ago
This forum is heavily anti-other-dbs and pro-postgres so you won't get objective answers here. FWIW, at least three DBAs that know both well have told me that postgres is an operational nightmare compared to mysql.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  In which ways?
  - Scarbutt 5y ago
    Don't know the exact details but they mentioned is full of operational footguns, like using it slightly wrong can utterly tank your performance or availability. Many operations are unpredictable so is hard to know what to expect. Another reason they mentioned is InnoDB, in particular that is the most battle-tested and well-engineered storage engine. With enormous amounts of engineering effort in hardening it for performance and for stability and operability at scale by companies like Google and Facebook. They also like Vitess.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Pg transactions seem more likely to deadlock compared to MySQL, IME. Its replication story was also worse for many years, though it's catching up. Pg connection limits are also lower because of resource allocation. And lack of query hints can really hurt when Pg's planner goes sideways. That said InnoDB's online DDL lagged Pg for quite a while. Generally feels like they're both getting better and more alike all the time.
qaq 5y ago
You do realize that prob 80% of Yugobyte code is PostgreSQL?
- api 5y ago
  Yes. The other 20% implements Raft consensus.
bayesian_horse 5y ago
Some people feel like Postgres with its decades of history is the safer bet. It's a known commodity. Or at least more known than CockroachDB and Yugabyte.
rkrzr 5y ago
As a long-time happy user of Postgres, I am happy to answer your questions: > The popularity and mindshare of Postgres really puzzles me. Why? Postgres really is "The World's Most Advanced Open Source Relational Database", just like it says on the tin. > It’s so arcane and full of weird failure modes and gotchas. Not really. It actually is the best-documented open source database that behaves just like they say in the manual. The Postgres manual is really quite wonderful, can be read back-to-back, like a good book. > Why can’t we have SQL like this? This has more to do with SQL itself than with Postgres. SQL as a standard has evolved over so many decades that the latest version of the spec has literally thousands of pages [citation needed, couldn't quickly find a link]. Implementing all of this, is an enormous task, and no relational DB implements all of it. > I guess we do in the form of CockroachDB or Yugabyte, but Postgres has been so aggressively evangelized try selling someone on those. I know of one or two companies that use them but it’s a tough sell. Postgres covers ~95% of all use cases of your average software company. Specialized DBs are really only useful in that last ~5% of cases. > There are tons of overpriced Postgres managed cloud offerings and consultancies, so my guess is that there is a heavy financially motivated astroturf campaign. Postgres is quite easy to run yourself, completely free of charge. There really isn't any "financially motivated astroturf campaign" that I can discern.
- djbusby 5y ago
  I've been using PG for like 20 years. Never paid, except for odd donation here and there, last trigger by the add of jsonb type.

by api 5y ago

gmac 5y ago

First: have you used Postgres, and at what scale? Because that hasn't been my experience of it. Second: do you know something that's comparable but better?

api 5y ago
I should have been more detailed. Postgres works really well in single node configurations as long as you read up a bit on the weirdness around vacuuming. Usually you don't have to worry unless you are running write-heavy loads at large scale. HA Postgres is where things get frustrating and hairy. It's 2021. I should be able to set up a master-master multi-node database by running a second node and telling it where the first node is, and then you're done. Master with read-only backup should be similarly easy. If I shut down the "lead" node a backup should become leader automatically. I should be able to set this up in a day and not worry that it will fail to fail over properly in a real scenario because there are algorithms now like Raft consensus that are provably correct (provided you meet their requirements). IMHO this kind of easy clustering is a table stakes feature for anything billing itself as an "enterprise capable" database. The fact that HA Postgres requires me to think in 2021 is what makes me hate the thing. As near as I can tell this problem exists to make me buy managed HA Postgres at 1000% markup over compute/storage. I can't complain too much because it's free and it is very good for the things it does well. It's just puzzling to me that there is no canonical turn-key solution for this after so many years of so many people requiring it. Implementing Raft is far far easier than a lot of the other stuff that has been implemented in Postgres.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  What other DBs deliver single day, enterprise ready deployments with HA multi master? Do they include ACID and CAP tradeoffs similar to PostgreSQL? Is their query language as rich and transferable as SQL?
  - api 5y ago
    CockroachDB is pretty close. I wouldn't say I'd go fully into production in one day but the failover behavior is Raft based and easy to understand. I could prototype an enterprise cluster in a few hours without descending into the arcane bowels of secret pg_incantations and "I think this is set up right but not sure if it will actually recover" clunky shit.
- whitepoplar 5y ago
  Check out pg_auto_failover! It's the easiest HA option for Postgres atm.

Scarbutt 5y ago

This forum is heavily anti-other-dbs and pro-postgres so you won't get objective answers here. FWIW, at least three DBAs that know both well have told me that postgres is an operational nightmare compared to mysql.

endisneigh 5y ago
In which ways?
- Scarbutt 5y ago
  Don't know the exact details but they mentioned is full of operational footguns, like using it slightly wrong can utterly tank your performance or availability. Many operations are unpredictable so is hard to know what to expect. Another reason they mentioned is InnoDB, in particular that is the most battle-tested and well-engineered storage engine. With enormous amounts of engineering effort in hardening it for performance and for stability and operability at scale by companies like Google and Facebook. They also like Vitess.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Pg transactions seem more likely to deadlock compared to MySQL, IME. Its replication story was also worse for many years, though it's catching up. Pg connection limits are also lower because of resource allocation. And lack of query hints can really hurt when Pg's planner goes sideways. That said InnoDB's online DDL lagged Pg for quite a while. Generally feels like they're both getting better and more alike all the time.

qaq 5y ago

You do realize that prob 80% of Yugobyte code is PostgreSQL?

api 5y ago
Yes. The other 20% implements Raft consensus.

bayesian_horse 5y ago

Some people feel like Postgres with its decades of history is the safer bet. It's a known commodity. Or at least more known than CockroachDB and Yugabyte.

rkrzr 5y ago

As a long-time happy user of Postgres, I am happy to answer your questions: > The popularity and mindshare of Postgres really puzzles me. Why? Postgres really is "The World's Most Advanced Open Source Relational Database", just like it says on the tin. > It’s so arcane and full of weird failure modes and gotchas. Not really. It actually is the best-documented open source database that behaves just like they say in the manual. The Postgres manual is really quite wonderful, can be read back-to-back, like a good book. > Why can’t we have SQL like this? This has more to do with SQL itself than with Postgres. SQL as a standard has evolved over so many decades that the latest version of the spec has literally thousands of pages [citation needed, couldn't quickly find a link]. Implementing all of this, is an enormous task, and no relational DB implements all of it. > I guess we do in the form of CockroachDB or Yugabyte, but Postgres has been so aggressively evangelized try selling someone on those. I know of one or two companies that use them but it’s a tough sell. Postgres covers ~95% of all use cases of your average software company. Specialized DBs are really only useful in that last ~5% of cases. > There are tons of overpriced Postgres managed cloud offerings and consultancies, so my guess is that there is a heavy financially motivated astroturf campaign. Postgres is quite easy to run yourself, completely free of charge. There really isn't any "financially motivated astroturf campaign" that I can discern.

djbusby 5y ago
I've been using PG for like 20 years. Never paid, except for odd donation here and there, last trigger by the add of jsonb type.