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"Electric vehicle drive systems, or powertrains, are not the main source of problems, Fisher said. The issues reported by owners are with other features." So t

"Electric vehicle drive systems, or powertrains, are not the main source of problems, Fisher said. The issues reported by owners are with other features." So they have some minor teething problems with body panels and such: I have a Model Y and overall it's been great, and my biggest complaint is highway noise. At speeds below perhaps 40 mph, it's far quieter than conventional cars. Preliminary data indicates the batteries last for a long time, and that long-term electric car durability is likely to be far higher than conventional cars. Overall, the article is a reminder of the problem with rankings: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-t...

neom 5y ago
I'm sure Tesla make amazing cars (I don't drive so no horse in this race) - but I still don't really understand why Tesla is a 1.3T company and Ford is a 77.4B company.
- verdverm 5y ago
  Tesla is more than an auto company, they demonstrate faster innovation, they are more capital efficient and scale faster than was thought possible. Consider they are also selling solar, batteries, insurance, and likely in home robots, ride sharing, and energy trading down the line. They may also resell their tech and software down the line as well. There is also the general over valuation of the market at work, which is not evenly distributed between companies. Too much money without enough places to go.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    > Consider they are also selling solar Generally very low margin. > batteries Generally extremely low margin. > insurance Low margin > and likely in home robots, ride sharing, and energy trading down the line. Speculative.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    A lot of that "innovation" is just "move fast and break things". Tesla has pushed out and then reverted how many FSD betas in response to issues? It's not surprising that so many people are disconcerted by the concept of being an unwilling beta tester for Tesla (by virtue of sharing the road), a company that clearly has disturbingly little acceptance testing for the software they're releasing.
    - verdverm 5y ago
      I'd recommend Sandy Munro for the more physical innovations. https://youtube.com/c/MunroLive https://youtube.com/c/MunroLive Their heat pumps and giga press are first of their kinds. They were things the old players said would never work and are now trying to adopt. It's also worth pointing out that Tesla's have a lower accident rate than the national average.
      - FireBeyond 5y ago
        > Their heat pumps and giga press are first of their kinds. They were things the old players said would never work and are now trying to adopt. I can't find anything that says other manufacturers said "heat pumps won't work". > It's also worth pointing out that Tesla's have a lower accident rate than the national average. What does this have to do with innovation? Many of the vehicles on the road have lower accident rates than the national average. Tesla is also notorious for vehicle accident and safety stats being misleading, and doubly so when its around the topic of AP/FSD.
        verdverm 5y ago
        https://youtu.be/eGffUODWWSE https://youtu.be/eGffUODWWSE (octopump) It's not that heat pumps won't work, it's about pump technology. This is actually the thermal management system, used for both heating and cooling. Sandy generally has great commentary on the auto industry. He's quite genuine Every auto company misleads, at least Tesla is being a leader The point about accident rates is in context of unwitting beta testers. There are many drivers on the road, many of who make the road unsafer. That fact should also be considered when discussing road safety. If FSD beta is better on average, then the roads are getting stepwise safer.
- pokerhobo 5y ago
  Ford has almost $100B debt and $46B in cash with net profit margin of 2.3%, gross profit margin 8% with revenue down year-over-year. Tesla has $14B debt with $16B cash 5.2%, gross profit margin per vehicle is 30% with revenue increasing >50% year-over-year. Tesla is priced for future expectations.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    > Tesla is priced for future expectations. What future expectations? As it is priced right now, the only way that makes sense is if Tesla starts selling more than _every other automotive manufacturer, combined_. That's insane, and not going to happen. "So short the stock", people say. And then Tesla fans act like shorting TSLA is something akin to a capital crime and at the very least should be forbidden by the exchanges or the SEC, from the reactions that come from it.
    - kolbe 5y ago
      Not true. Tesla could also profit more per car than all others. They could achieve this simply by being non-union. Or they could achieve it by winning the autonomous vehicle wars. They could even achieve it by not being a car company (e.g. a battery or charging station or solar company). It's not as simple as adding up all the other car company valuations.
      - piva00 5y ago
        This is the 2nd jab at unions you take in this whole thread. It's a bit mind-boggling as if unions were the demise of automakers then Audi, Porsche, Volkswagen, Mercedes and so on would never have been profitable given Germany's union environment... It's a cheap shot that you seem to like to reiterate. What's the source you have that unions are the most problematic issue to automakers' profitability?
      - elp 5y ago
        What's magical about Tesla that its going to stay a non union shop? If every other car company has to deal with unions then its only a matter of time until they are as well. The only way they can prevent that is to pay more than the other places but then their profits wouldn't stay high.
- 01100011 5y ago
  It's a lot of circular logic and wishful thinking. A lot of it boils down to something like: - Tesla will "win" the race(either to self driving, or some magical EV adoption level, or the gigapress will let them sell cars for half the price of other mfgs) and then swallow 90%+ of the market. Other auto manufacturers will just disappear or something, and will live in Tesla's shadow forever. - Tesla makes robotaxis and everyone on the planet will simultaneously want to own a Tesla as well as pay for rides in rented Teslas. Again this argument usually rests on the assumption that Tesla will do the impossible and no other manufacturer will ever keep up. - Tesla is a (software, navigation, power, battery, robot, mapping, AI, etc) company. They will take all of their tech an monetize it. This of course will not require any overhead and Tesla will make 110% profit on every market they enter, which, of course, they will dominate and no other existing manufacturers will be able to compete. If you call out a Tesla fan on this, they will cycle back and forth between some variation of those arguments until you give up. Generally the Tesla fan has quite a bit invested in Tesla(via stock or just $10k beta test fees), and they argue as if conceding the argument will destroy their investment and prevent humans from colonizing Mars. I think it's worth mentioning that Tesla doesn't just compete against other auto manufacturers. They (currently anyway) compete against public transportation systems and well designed, walkable cities. They seem to be a better solution than, say, IC cars, but in the long run we may see the world moving away from personal vehicles, electric or not. If nothing else, as cars become more intelligent, they become smaller, lighter and cheaper. Tesla may not have much advantage when we're all whizzing around in self-driving mopeds or whatever the future provides us.
- kolbe 5y ago
  Unions have, and always will, take the excess profits of Ford/GM for themselves. Even if Ford is a better car company, its shareholders will never get to see the money from it.
  - soco 5y ago
    Which is why VW, Mercedes, Citroen, Fiat, are all bankrupt and their shareholders live under bridges. Or wait...
    - kolbe 5y ago
      Hi. Welcome to America. The laws/rules are different here. I have a feeling German unions aren’t run by literal mobsters, either. Please learn the definition of “excess profits” before harassing me more. Every company you mentioned is worth significantly less money than Tesla. And where does VW rank in revenue to market cap? A quick glance shows Apple makes about 80% more revenue than VW, and has a market cap 25x higher. The money isn’t going to shareholders.
Swizec 5y ago
> So they have some minor teething problems with body panels and such The problem is that these are $60,000+ cars that don’t feel like a 60k car. You can get a Mercedes E class for that money and it feels like pure luxury when you sit inside. Every detail is just perfect. A Tesla by comparison feels kinda cheap. Because the EV drivetrain is currently expensive and that’s what you’re paying for. I don’t own a car but I like to rent lots of different drives. The difference in feel between a Tesla and a Merc or Beemer is stark. And not in Tesla’s favor at the moment.
- sen 5y ago
  A Tesla model 3 in Australia costs more than a brand new Lexus IS300 Luxury. I tested both (and the Tesla S, just for the hell of it), and despite really really wanting to own an EV and leave ICE behind forever, I left with the Lexus. The quality difference is difficult to even put into words, even against the S. The Lexus feels like a $100k car, yet costs 3/4 of that. The Tesla S feels like a $50k car, and costs more than double that. The 3 felt worse than a Corolla in every single way other than performance, but if I wanted a fast vehicle that's built like crap I'd just go buy a used sports car and at least I'd be able to get parts for it and get it serviced/repaired without it taking months.

neom 5y ago

I'm sure Tesla make amazing cars (I don't drive so no horse in this race) - but I still don't really understand why Tesla is a 1.3T company and Ford is a 77.4B company.

verdverm 5y ago
Tesla is more than an auto company, they demonstrate faster innovation, they are more capital efficient and scale faster than was thought possible. Consider they are also selling solar, batteries, insurance, and likely in home robots, ride sharing, and energy trading down the line. They may also resell their tech and software down the line as well. There is also the general over valuation of the market at work, which is not evenly distributed between companies. Too much money without enough places to go.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  > Consider they are also selling solar Generally very low margin. > batteries Generally extremely low margin. > insurance Low margin > and likely in home robots, ride sharing, and energy trading down the line. Speculative.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  A lot of that "innovation" is just "move fast and break things". Tesla has pushed out and then reverted how many FSD betas in response to issues? It's not surprising that so many people are disconcerted by the concept of being an unwilling beta tester for Tesla (by virtue of sharing the road), a company that clearly has disturbingly little acceptance testing for the software they're releasing.
  - verdverm 5y ago
    I'd recommend Sandy Munro for the more physical innovations. https://youtube.com/c/MunroLive https://youtube.com/c/MunroLive Their heat pumps and giga press are first of their kinds. They were things the old players said would never work and are now trying to adopt. It's also worth pointing out that Tesla's have a lower accident rate than the national average.
    - FireBeyond 5y ago
      > Their heat pumps and giga press are first of their kinds. They were things the old players said would never work and are now trying to adopt. I can't find anything that says other manufacturers said "heat pumps won't work". > It's also worth pointing out that Tesla's have a lower accident rate than the national average. What does this have to do with innovation? Many of the vehicles on the road have lower accident rates than the national average. Tesla is also notorious for vehicle accident and safety stats being misleading, and doubly so when its around the topic of AP/FSD.
      - verdverm 5y ago
        https://youtu.be/eGffUODWWSE https://youtu.be/eGffUODWWSE (octopump) It's not that heat pumps won't work, it's about pump technology. This is actually the thermal management system, used for both heating and cooling. Sandy generally has great commentary on the auto industry. He's quite genuine Every auto company misleads, at least Tesla is being a leader The point about accident rates is in context of unwitting beta testers. There are many drivers on the road, many of who make the road unsafer. That fact should also be considered when discussing road safety. If FSD beta is better on average, then the roads are getting stepwise safer.
pokerhobo 5y ago
Ford has almost $100B debt and $46B in cash with net profit margin of 2.3%, gross profit margin 8% with revenue down year-over-year. Tesla has $14B debt with $16B cash 5.2%, gross profit margin per vehicle is 30% with revenue increasing >50% year-over-year. Tesla is priced for future expectations.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  > Tesla is priced for future expectations. What future expectations? As it is priced right now, the only way that makes sense is if Tesla starts selling more than _every other automotive manufacturer, combined_. That's insane, and not going to happen. "So short the stock", people say. And then Tesla fans act like shorting TSLA is something akin to a capital crime and at the very least should be forbidden by the exchanges or the SEC, from the reactions that come from it.
  - kolbe 5y ago
    Not true. Tesla could also profit more per car than all others. They could achieve this simply by being non-union. Or they could achieve it by winning the autonomous vehicle wars. They could even achieve it by not being a car company (e.g. a battery or charging station or solar company). It's not as simple as adding up all the other car company valuations.
    - piva00 5y ago
      This is the 2nd jab at unions you take in this whole thread. It's a bit mind-boggling as if unions were the demise of automakers then Audi, Porsche, Volkswagen, Mercedes and so on would never have been profitable given Germany's union environment... It's a cheap shot that you seem to like to reiterate. What's the source you have that unions are the most problematic issue to automakers' profitability?
    - elp 5y ago
      What's magical about Tesla that its going to stay a non union shop? If every other car company has to deal with unions then its only a matter of time until they are as well. The only way they can prevent that is to pay more than the other places but then their profits wouldn't stay high.
01100011 5y ago
It's a lot of circular logic and wishful thinking. A lot of it boils down to something like: - Tesla will "win" the race(either to self driving, or some magical EV adoption level, or the gigapress will let them sell cars for half the price of other mfgs) and then swallow 90%+ of the market. Other auto manufacturers will just disappear or something, and will live in Tesla's shadow forever. - Tesla makes robotaxis and everyone on the planet will simultaneously want to own a Tesla as well as pay for rides in rented Teslas. Again this argument usually rests on the assumption that Tesla will do the impossible and no other manufacturer will ever keep up. - Tesla is a (software, navigation, power, battery, robot, mapping, AI, etc) company. They will take all of their tech an monetize it. This of course will not require any overhead and Tesla will make 110% profit on every market they enter, which, of course, they will dominate and no other existing manufacturers will be able to compete. If you call out a Tesla fan on this, they will cycle back and forth between some variation of those arguments until you give up. Generally the Tesla fan has quite a bit invested in Tesla(via stock or just $10k beta test fees), and they argue as if conceding the argument will destroy their investment and prevent humans from colonizing Mars. I think it's worth mentioning that Tesla doesn't just compete against other auto manufacturers. They (currently anyway) compete against public transportation systems and well designed, walkable cities. They seem to be a better solution than, say, IC cars, but in the long run we may see the world moving away from personal vehicles, electric or not. If nothing else, as cars become more intelligent, they become smaller, lighter and cheaper. Tesla may not have much advantage when we're all whizzing around in self-driving mopeds or whatever the future provides us.
kolbe 5y ago
Unions have, and always will, take the excess profits of Ford/GM for themselves. Even if Ford is a better car company, its shareholders will never get to see the money from it.
- soco 5y ago
  Which is why VW, Mercedes, Citroen, Fiat, are all bankrupt and their shareholders live under bridges. Or wait...
  - kolbe 5y ago
    Hi. Welcome to America. The laws/rules are different here. I have a feeling German unions aren’t run by literal mobsters, either. Please learn the definition of “excess profits” before harassing me more. Every company you mentioned is worth significantly less money than Tesla. And where does VW rank in revenue to market cap? A quick glance shows Apple makes about 80% more revenue than VW, and has a market cap 25x higher. The money isn’t going to shareholders.

Swizec 5y ago

> So they have some minor teething problems with body panels and such The problem is that these are $60,000+ cars that don’t feel like a 60k car. You can get a Mercedes E class for that money and it feels like pure luxury when you sit inside. Every detail is just perfect. A Tesla by comparison feels kinda cheap. Because the EV drivetrain is currently expensive and that’s what you’re paying for. I don’t own a car but I like to rent lots of different drives. The difference in feel between a Tesla and a Merc or Beemer is stark. And not in Tesla’s favor at the moment.

sen 5y ago
A Tesla model 3 in Australia costs more than a brand new Lexus IS300 Luxury. I tested both (and the Tesla S, just for the hell of it), and despite really really wanting to own an EV and leave ICE behind forever, I left with the Lexus. The quality difference is difficult to even put into words, even against the S. The Lexus feels like a $100k car, yet costs 3/4 of that. The Tesla S feels like a $50k car, and costs more than double that. The 3 felt worse than a Corolla in every single way other than performance, but if I wanted a fast vehicle that's built like crap I'd just go buy a used sports car and at least I'd be able to get parts for it and get it serviced/repaired without it taking months.