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The virus is endemic so we're already in the certain scenario. That's why I don't understand the logic of people that refuse vaccination. You can either take 40

The virus is endemic so we're already in the certain scenario. That's why I don't understand the logic of people that refuse vaccination. You can either take 40 pills for 5 days or you can get vaccinated and avoid the hassle entirely. Deferring the decision just guarantees you will take the 40 pills, there is no way to avoid contracting the virus anymore.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Or you can do neither and if you are otherwise healthy it isn't much to worry about. Conversely, people with other health problems or who are terrified of covid might get both.
- holonomically 5y ago
  Being otherwise healthy is no guarantee that you are not genetically susceptible to cytokine storm reaction to the virus. The vaccine preps the immune system to avoid over-reacting, whether you are otherwise healthy or not does not really make a difference because no one can control their genetics and how it will interact with novel viruses. [1] 1: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra2026131 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra2026131
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Being otherwise healthy is a massive factor in outcome though, and reduces the risk an order of magnitude or so, to levels many people don't care about very much.
    - holonomically 5y ago
      The point is that even for healthy individuals the odds are stacked against them if they catch the actual virus instead of getting the vaccine and prepping their immune system ahead of time. [1] 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-healthy-man-42-from-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-health...
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        I don't think the odds are stacked against them at all. The odds are stacked for them. Unless you are using an unusual meaning of the phrase -- the odds are actually stacked for even most people who do have co-morbidities. I'm not sure what your link demonstrates. I didn't say that healthy people can't die from covid.
        holonomically 5y ago
        https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/odds+are+stacked+against+them https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/odds+are+stacked+agains... The odds are stacked against them as in they are less likely to survive if they contract the virus without being vaccinated. Outward appearance of health are unrelated to cytokine storms because cytokine storms are a confluence of genetic factors and viral DNA and unrelated to any outward appearances of health. In any case, the links I've presented are evidence enough for me to be convinced that vaccination is the right answer and if you're not convinced then that's fine. We can agree to disagree about the risk factors.
        jacobmischka 5y ago
        I am absolutely pro-vaccine in all circumstances, but you are not using the phrase "odds stacked against them" correctly.
        holonomically 5y ago
        Given that there is a highly virulent novel virus, the odds are stacked against the anti-vaxxers because if you believe that you can somehow avoid getting infected then you are not calculating probabilities properly and so you are underestimating the odds of contracting the virus and surviving, i.e. the odds are stacked against them and they don't realize it. Now, how exactly am I using the phrase incorrectly?
        throwawaylinux 5y ago
  - nradov 5y ago
    While cytokine storms do occur in some cases that is not the primary mechanism of death. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82862-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82862-5
    - holonomically 5y ago
      Where did I say it was?

throwawaylinux 5y ago

Or you can do neither and if you are otherwise healthy it isn't much to worry about. Conversely, people with other health problems or who are terrified of covid might get both.

holonomically 5y ago
Being otherwise healthy is no guarantee that you are not genetically susceptible to cytokine storm reaction to the virus. The vaccine preps the immune system to avoid over-reacting, whether you are otherwise healthy or not does not really make a difference because no one can control their genetics and how it will interact with novel viruses. [1] 1: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra2026131 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra2026131
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Being otherwise healthy is a massive factor in outcome though, and reduces the risk an order of magnitude or so, to levels many people don't care about very much.
  - holonomically 5y ago
    The point is that even for healthy individuals the odds are stacked against them if they catch the actual virus instead of getting the vaccine and prepping their immune system ahead of time. [1] 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-healthy-man-42-from-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-health...
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      I don't think the odds are stacked against them at all. The odds are stacked for them. Unless you are using an unusual meaning of the phrase -- the odds are actually stacked for even most people who do have co-morbidities. I'm not sure what your link demonstrates. I didn't say that healthy people can't die from covid.
      - holonomically 5y ago
        https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/odds+are+stacked+against+them https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/odds+are+stacked+agains... The odds are stacked against them as in they are less likely to survive if they contract the virus without being vaccinated. Outward appearance of health are unrelated to cytokine storms because cytokine storms are a confluence of genetic factors and viral DNA and unrelated to any outward appearances of health. In any case, the links I've presented are evidence enough for me to be convinced that vaccination is the right answer and if you're not convinced then that's fine. We can agree to disagree about the risk factors.
        jacobmischka 5y ago
        I am absolutely pro-vaccine in all circumstances, but you are not using the phrase "odds stacked against them" correctly.
        holonomically 5y ago
        Given that there is a highly virulent novel virus, the odds are stacked against the anti-vaxxers because if you believe that you can somehow avoid getting infected then you are not calculating probabilities properly and so you are underestimating the odds of contracting the virus and surviving, i.e. the odds are stacked against them and they don't realize it. Now, how exactly am I using the phrase incorrectly?
        throwawaylinux 5y ago
- nradov 5y ago
  While cytokine storms do occur in some cases that is not the primary mechanism of death. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82862-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82862-5
  - holonomically 5y ago
    Where did I say it was?