3 ms·

> Why did you ignore all the counter-examples I gave? Are you saying you stigmatise obese people, and people who drink? Your points were addressed implicitly,

> Why did you ignore all the counter-examples I gave? Are you saying you stigmatise obese people, and people who drink? Your points were addressed implicitly, but I can do so explicitly at your behest: Obesity and alcoholism aren't preventing people with other conditions from seeking medical care because the current medical system (at least in western nations) can account for and manage these conditions successfully, unlike COVID which has consistently resulted in resource, capacity, and utility shortages throughout the pandemic thereby posing an undue risk to general welfare and the lives of others. I also say this as someone who's been both obese and not obese: unlike a decision to refuse a life-saving vaccine, refusing to eat is far, far harder. And as someone who refuses to drink specifically because I know my own tendencies towards addiction, I empathize with those who started drinking socially and suddenly found themselves trapped by the vice grip of an alcohol abuse disorder. None of these compare to to choosing to refuse a vaccine without sound medical grounds. There's nothing much to debate here; the topics you flagged are pretty personal topics for me, so I'll gladly and passionately defend against their misuse in debate.

brutusborn 5y ago
Thankyou for your explanation, I genuinely didn't understand the implicit response. And I think I agree with you, that the essential difference is how easy it is to get vaccinated. I probably come to different conclusions because I know people for whom it's not "easy". This is because they are fearful of vaccines, mistrust authority, are uneducated or are paranoid. I think there is a parallel between an alcoholic slowly ruining their life through denial of the effects of drinking, and someone refusing a useful vaccine due to fear. In both cases, stigma may help them change course, but in my experience is is more likely to entrench the behaviour. Thus I don't think it should be used.
native_samples 5y ago
The reason hospitals still "can't cope" (this is frequently a relentless exaggeration but let's roll with it) is because the healthcare system has persistently refused to train new people or lift a finger to increase capacity in any way, and in fact, is now firing healthcare workers en-masse for not taking it, even though many don't need to and it doesn't eliminate transmission anyway. At some point people need to stop being so lenient on health suppliers. They are implicitly demanding society trashes itself to avoid them having to hire and train. It's endemic now, there is no cure, the treatment is mostly still oxygen+drugs. There's no excuse.
- brutusborn 5y ago
  I find this sort of lack of future planning occurs in many industries. Where I live there is a high demand for engineers, but few companies are willing to train graduates, they prefer to import workers since without loyalty, training is simply a cost-centre. If the problem gets bad enough, governments respond with University funding, which takes at least 4 years before this flows on to industry.
nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, but obese patients are the majority of the COVID-19 hospital load. In other words, if we had zero obesity rate there would be no concern about overwhelming the hospitals. https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-children-in-covid-icus-are-overweight-but-public-health-officials-rarely-talk-about-obesity https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-c...

brutusborn 5y ago

Thankyou for your explanation, I genuinely didn't understand the implicit response. And I think I agree with you, that the essential difference is how easy it is to get vaccinated. I probably come to different conclusions because I know people for whom it's not "easy". This is because they are fearful of vaccines, mistrust authority, are uneducated or are paranoid. I think there is a parallel between an alcoholic slowly ruining their life through denial of the effects of drinking, and someone refusing a useful vaccine due to fear. In both cases, stigma may help them change course, but in my experience is is more likely to entrench the behaviour. Thus I don't think it should be used.

native_samples 5y ago

The reason hospitals still "can't cope" (this is frequently a relentless exaggeration but let's roll with it) is because the healthcare system has persistently refused to train new people or lift a finger to increase capacity in any way, and in fact, is now firing healthcare workers en-masse for not taking it, even though many don't need to and it doesn't eliminate transmission anyway. At some point people need to stop being so lenient on health suppliers. They are implicitly demanding society trashes itself to avoid them having to hire and train. It's endemic now, there is no cure, the treatment is mostly still oxygen+drugs. There's no excuse.

brutusborn 5y ago
I find this sort of lack of future planning occurs in many industries. Where I live there is a high demand for engineers, but few companies are willing to train graduates, they prefer to import workers since without loyalty, training is simply a cost-centre. If the problem gets bad enough, governments respond with University funding, which takes at least 4 years before this flows on to industry.

nradov 5y ago

I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, but obese patients are the majority of the COVID-19 hospital load. In other words, if we had zero obesity rate there would be no concern about overwhelming the hospitals. https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-children-in-covid-icus-are-overweight-but-public-health-officials-rarely-talk-about-obesity https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-c...