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Really cool article. They show that Wolves create a “landscape of fear” which reduces deer engagement with roads. So wolves do what hunters can’t; not just redu

Really cool article. They show that Wolves create a “landscape of fear” which reduces deer engagement with roads. So wolves do what hunters can’t; not just reducing populations but also changing behavior. Kind of creepy, if you are a deer!

jjtheblunt 5y ago
How long till deer hunters decide they need to hunt wolf to remotivate deer hunting? (I thought of this immediately as some hunters I know have absurd justifications for it being useful for ecosystems)
felipemnoa 5y ago
>>Kind of creepy, if you are a deer! This made me laugh! I think this applies to any animal that is prey.
- rewq4321 5y ago
  Deer suffering makes you laugh?
DeBraid 5y ago
Related, an excellent podcast episode by that name "Landscape of Fear" from Meateater: https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-162-landscape-of-fear https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-162-landsca... Steven Rinella talks with Dr. Kevin Monteith, Dr. Matt Kaufmann, Jared Oakleaf, and Janis Putelis. Subjects discussed: genetics that rewrite our understanding of animals; big game guts; learning how to migrate; who pays for wildlife research?; brain scrambling, extreme sports, and wildlife capture; advancing modern wildlife management; etc.
- scottndecker 5y ago
  Love seeing some MeatEater pop up on my HN feed :)
DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
> Really cool article. a wolf wrote it. joking aside the Yellowstone phenomenon gets often cited. We have a long way to go in Europe (cough cough Switzerland, Austria) where the wolf by the rural community is still seen as a huge problem to the way of life (hunting and farming). I wonder if some modern solutions where wolves that are tagged anyway can be combined with trackers on cows/sheep/goats that subscribe to this data, so that the shepherd knows that a wolf is about to approach the herd. The bigger problem in these communities is that hunters have been doing this for generations, I myself come from such a family, my gramps, even my mother my uncle everyone was a hunter. They all believe that the hunter plays an important role in keeping a check on population of deer etc. As Yellowstone has shown reintroducing the wolf hasn't just solved that issue but also brought back types of trees, flowers and biodiversity that was previously lost. All because they allowed apex-predators back to where they were. But try to convince somebody in the countryside about this ... going to be a tough sell.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  That's nice and all, but aren't wolves dangerous? How many humans being attacked by wolves is an acceptable number?
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    Much less dangerous than deer, it seems.
    - jazzyjackson 5y ago
      you say that, but let’s swap every deer for a wolf and see where things land! xD
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - aryik 5y ago
    Quite simply, no wolves aren’t dangerous. There were 12 wolf attacks from 2002-2020 in Europe and North America: [1] “In Europe and North America we only found evidence for 12 attacks (with 14 victims), of which 2 (both in North America) were fatal, across a period of 18 years. Considering that there are close to 60.000 wolves in North America and 15.000 in Europe, all sharing space with hun- dreds of millions of people it is apparent that the risks associated with a wolf attack are above zero, but far too low to calculate” 1: https://brage.nina.no/nina-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2729772/ninarapport1944.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=yabout:blank https://brage.nina.no/nina-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2729...
geenew 5y ago
The same is true for humans, though - the presence of wolves adds to human fear of the wilderness. I only read the abstract but I wonder if this was accounted for in the article. Sure, it’s plausible that wolves lead to fewer deer-vehicle collisions, and that is a economic benefit. But what is the cost of decreasing humans’ willingness to enter the woods?
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  Wolves are not a serious threat to outdoor recreation. The presence of wolves in an area will have little effect on my willingness to hike there. I hike in mountain lion country, so what? I'd be a bit leery of being out there alone after dark, but during the day I don't care.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Or willingness to buy a hunting license.
- brainfish 5y ago
  I live about 20 miles from ground zero of the original Yellowstone wolf reintroduction. I am an avid outdoorsperson and have never had an on-foot encounter with a wolf. They are exceedingly shy around humans; in the 25 years since the reintroduction there hasn't been a single attack on a human in Yellowstone despite both humans and wolves being literally everywhere in the area. I'm not saying no one is afraid of going outdoors because of the wolves, but that fear would be completely irrational. Your chances of twisting your ankle badly enough that you get caught out and die of exposure are many orders of magnitude greater. Edit to add: as an additional anecdote, we get a ton of tourists coming here to head outdoors because of their interest in the wolves and hopes of seeing one.
  - tw04 5y ago
    Not to mention grizzly bears and bison(bison mostly due to idiots thinking they are tame) are both a far greater threat than the wolves. If you're worried about wolves in Yellowstone you're worried about the wrong thing.
  - 5y ago
jmartrican 5y ago
That landscape of fear will keep humans out too.
- TranquilMarmot 5y ago
  I can't tell if you mean this in a negative way or a positive one.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
It's also a HUGE political thing in the US. GOP candidates make lots of commercials with themselves killing wolves, because it is such a visceral wedge issue between left/right. I recall VP Candidate Sara Palin went on a helicopter wolf-shooting trip for a photo op in 2008. In the US it is considered masculine to kill wolves and the GOP likes that, and it also satisfies another voting block: ranchers who complain about their livelihoods being lost to too many predators. It's quite amazing to see this wedge issue in action, because it involves watching animals die for political points.
frabbit 5y ago
Was just skimming the comments and title before reading the article. Your summary has made me go read the article.
- frabbit 5y ago
  Or not. $10 for the PDF. Maybe I can find it on SciHub. Still, I liked your summary. Thanks.
novok 5y ago
Very curious what was the conditions behind human hunting in the article. Did the area have unlimited deer hunting w/ no license renewals required? When I tried deer hunting once I noticed that the deer were not in the areas where we were allowed to hunt, and were very plentiful in areas we were not allowed to hunt.
- m0ngr31 5y ago
  Deer are pretty smart like that. Where I live there are deer all over about 2 weeks before hunting season. Then they dissapear into the hills. They just started coming back now that the hunt is over.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Humans are kind of stinky so I'm sure they just need to be upwind from them to realize "oh lord the humans are back again, time to head deeper into the woods for a while"
swayvil 5y ago
Ya, I wonder how our present landscape of fear is affecting our behavior. No doubt it's been studied thoroughly

jjtheblunt 5y ago

How long till deer hunters decide they need to hunt wolf to remotivate deer hunting? (I thought of this immediately as some hunters I know have absurd justifications for it being useful for ecosystems)

felipemnoa 5y ago

>>Kind of creepy, if you are a deer! This made me laugh! I think this applies to any animal that is prey.

rewq4321 5y ago
Deer suffering makes you laugh?

DeBraid 5y ago

Related, an excellent podcast episode by that name "Landscape of Fear" from Meateater: https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-162-landscape-of-fear https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-162-landsca... Steven Rinella talks with Dr. Kevin Monteith, Dr. Matt Kaufmann, Jared Oakleaf, and Janis Putelis. Subjects discussed: genetics that rewrite our understanding of animals; big game guts; learning how to migrate; who pays for wildlife research?; brain scrambling, extreme sports, and wildlife capture; advancing modern wildlife management; etc.

scottndecker 5y ago
Love seeing some MeatEater pop up on my HN feed :)

DyslexicAtheist 5y ago

> Really cool article. a wolf wrote it. joking aside the Yellowstone phenomenon gets often cited. We have a long way to go in Europe (cough cough Switzerland, Austria) where the wolf by the rural community is still seen as a huge problem to the way of life (hunting and farming). I wonder if some modern solutions where wolves that are tagged anyway can be combined with trackers on cows/sheep/goats that subscribe to this data, so that the shepherd knows that a wolf is about to approach the herd. The bigger problem in these communities is that hunters have been doing this for generations, I myself come from such a family, my gramps, even my mother my uncle everyone was a hunter. They all believe that the hunter plays an important role in keeping a check on population of deer etc. As Yellowstone has shown reintroducing the wolf hasn't just solved that issue but also brought back types of trees, flowers and biodiversity that was previously lost. All because they allowed apex-predators back to where they were. But try to convince somebody in the countryside about this ... going to be a tough sell.

HPsquared 5y ago
That's nice and all, but aren't wolves dangerous? How many humans being attacked by wolves is an acceptable number?
- pvaldes 5y ago
  Much less dangerous than deer, it seems.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    you say that, but let’s swap every deer for a wolf and see where things land! xD
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- aryik 5y ago
  Quite simply, no wolves aren’t dangerous. There were 12 wolf attacks from 2002-2020 in Europe and North America: [1] “In Europe and North America we only found evidence for 12 attacks (with 14 victims), of which 2 (both in North America) were fatal, across a period of 18 years. Considering that there are close to 60.000 wolves in North America and 15.000 in Europe, all sharing space with hun- dreds of millions of people it is apparent that the risks associated with a wolf attack are above zero, but far too low to calculate” 1: https://brage.nina.no/nina-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2729772/ninarapport1944.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=yabout:blank https://brage.nina.no/nina-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2729...

geenew 5y ago

The same is true for humans, though - the presence of wolves adds to human fear of the wilderness. I only read the abstract but I wonder if this was accounted for in the article. Sure, it’s plausible that wolves lead to fewer deer-vehicle collisions, and that is a economic benefit. But what is the cost of decreasing humans’ willingness to enter the woods?

LorenPechtel 5y ago
Wolves are not a serious threat to outdoor recreation. The presence of wolves in an area will have little effect on my willingness to hike there. I hike in mountain lion country, so what? I'd be a bit leery of being out there alone after dark, but during the day I don't care.
giantg2 5y ago
Or willingness to buy a hunting license.
brainfish 5y ago
I live about 20 miles from ground zero of the original Yellowstone wolf reintroduction. I am an avid outdoorsperson and have never had an on-foot encounter with a wolf. They are exceedingly shy around humans; in the 25 years since the reintroduction there hasn't been a single attack on a human in Yellowstone despite both humans and wolves being literally everywhere in the area. I'm not saying no one is afraid of going outdoors because of the wolves, but that fear would be completely irrational. Your chances of twisting your ankle badly enough that you get caught out and die of exposure are many orders of magnitude greater. Edit to add: as an additional anecdote, we get a ton of tourists coming here to head outdoors because of their interest in the wolves and hopes of seeing one.
- tw04 5y ago
  Not to mention grizzly bears and bison(bison mostly due to idiots thinking they are tame) are both a far greater threat than the wolves. If you're worried about wolves in Yellowstone you're worried about the wrong thing.
- 5y ago

jmartrican 5y ago

That landscape of fear will keep humans out too.

TranquilMarmot 5y ago
I can't tell if you mean this in a negative way or a positive one.

SavantIdiot 5y ago

It's also a HUGE political thing in the US. GOP candidates make lots of commercials with themselves killing wolves, because it is such a visceral wedge issue between left/right. I recall VP Candidate Sara Palin went on a helicopter wolf-shooting trip for a photo op in 2008. In the US it is considered masculine to kill wolves and the GOP likes that, and it also satisfies another voting block: ranchers who complain about their livelihoods being lost to too many predators. It's quite amazing to see this wedge issue in action, because it involves watching animals die for political points.

frabbit 5y ago

Was just skimming the comments and title before reading the article. Your summary has made me go read the article.

frabbit 5y ago
Or not. $10 for the PDF. Maybe I can find it on SciHub. Still, I liked your summary. Thanks.

novok 5y ago

Very curious what was the conditions behind human hunting in the article. Did the area have unlimited deer hunting w/ no license renewals required? When I tried deer hunting once I noticed that the deer were not in the areas where we were allowed to hunt, and were very plentiful in areas we were not allowed to hunt.

m0ngr31 5y ago
Deer are pretty smart like that. Where I live there are deer all over about 2 weeks before hunting season. Then they dissapear into the hills. They just started coming back now that the hunt is over.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Humans are kind of stinky so I'm sure they just need to be upwind from them to realize "oh lord the humans are back again, time to head deeper into the woods for a while"

swayvil 5y ago

Ya, I wonder how our present landscape of fear is affecting our behavior. No doubt it's been studied thoroughly