5 ms·

The environmental argument is a straw man, and not really related to crypto, but actually related to our energy mix. If crypto was mined only on renewables the

The environmental argument is a straw man, and not really related to crypto, but actually related to our energy mix. If crypto was mined only on renewables there is no environmental argument. Ergo, not related to crypto technology itself.

Ekaros 5y ago
Burning electricity as heat just so our currency is little bit more resilient doesn't really seem in anyway efficient way to do things. And any efficiency gains are negated because we will just do more of it. Any other industry including financial one will try to minimise the waste if it becomes unreasonable. Not so with proof of work crypto.
Scarblac 5y ago
Energy is fungible, we don't have 100% green energy and won't for a very long time, we make up the difference with fossil. Even if crypto used green energy only, it means more fossil burned. To continue human civilization we need to stop fossil burning as much as possible, crypto is unnecessary and should therefore be stopped.
- onethought 5y ago
  But that is solved with a price on carbon. That would make mining without renewables unprofitable. How do you argue that something is unnecessary? Aluminum uses heaps of energy… we haven’t needed in for 1000s of years, is it neccersary?
gjulianm 5y ago
It's not a straw man. Yes, if the energy mix was only reliant of renewables, energy usage wouldn't be as much as a problem. But it is not, and won't be in years, decades, so we can't just brush off the energy usage of crypto as "well it's the energy mix fault". You cannot evaluate a technology in isolation of its real world, practical context. Not to mention that even with renewables, energy usage would be still a concern. Renewables will still have issues around distribution, power peaks, energy storage, price, and crypto wouldn't be helping any of them. A discussion of how would crypto affect the rest of the people compared to the benefit it brings would still be relevant.
- throwaway554 5y ago
  56% of energy used for Bitcoin mining is coming from renewable sources of energy.
  - gjulianm 5y ago
    Is there a source for that? Last time I checked there weren't reliable reports even on total energy usage, much less energy sources.
    - throwaway554 5y ago
      https://www.hope.com/content/dam/hope-assets/collateral/Mining-Council-Press-Release-Q2_07-01-2021.pdf https://www.hope.com/content/dam/hope-assets/collateral/Mini...
      - gjulianm 5y ago
        That's a self-reported survey by members of a Bitcoin mining council, which represent an unknown portion of the total mining capacity, and if I'm correct the term "sustainable energy" includes "carbon-based energy with net emission credits". It doesn't seem the most reliable source to me.
  - Applejinx 5y ago
    That is one heck of a waste, at a time when managing the thermal runaway of our planet is a matter of great and immediate urgency.
    - throwaway554 5y ago
      Separating money from the state is worth the cost.
      - malermeister 5y ago
        I think this is what every crypto argument secretly comes down to, this ideological disagreement. I don't want money to be separated from the state, and especially not at a cost. One man's crypto-anarchocapitalist utopia is another man's dystopian capitalist nightmare that we sacrificed our environment for.
joe-collins 5y ago
If crypto was only mined on renewables and there was sufficient (and sufficiently distributed) renewable energy that the presence of crypto did not otherwise detract from our desperately overdue de-carbonization efforts, then sure, whatever, knock yourselves out melting your processors to do funny math. But that isn't the reality we live in. The environmental aspect is manifestly a part of how crypto phenomenon, and attempts to separate the underlying technology from the manner in which it is (and for the foreseeable future, will continue to be) used, are disingenuous at best.
svennek 5y ago
I think the renewable energy is the real straw-man. What about the non-recycable waste after "renewable" energy. Windmills have steel coated by epoxy wings, those cannot be recycled. Solar panels is also ready for the trash-heap after 20 years, due to being a complex composite.. The only real energy source that would help would be nuclear, but even if we get that where have more efficient room-heaters and better use of the computing.. (protein folding could be one for example)
- onethought 5y ago
  Solar panels aren’t complex composites. They are silicon with some coatings on it. You can definitely recycle them.
CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
Renewables have environmental impact too.
delusional 5y ago
Renewable are also not free. The technology of crypto (as it exists today) is more energy consuming than a single computer processing all the transactions centrally. No matter how you cut it, that delta is waste if the additional functionality is useless.
beepbooptheory 5y ago
Your argument lacks a modal operator I think.
kortilla 5y ago
That’s not a straw man. It’s literally how huge portions of crypto are mined right now. Were you trying to say “red herring”? Regardless, energy is a market and even if crypto used purely renewable energy, that’s energy that wasn’t used for replacing fossil fuels in some other use case. Literally any technology that massively boosts energy consumption has the same problem.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bigbillheck 5y ago
Crypto mining is using renewable capacity that could be used for other purposes.

Ekaros 5y ago

Burning electricity as heat just so our currency is little bit more resilient doesn't really seem in anyway efficient way to do things. And any efficiency gains are negated because we will just do more of it. Any other industry including financial one will try to minimise the waste if it becomes unreasonable. Not so with proof of work crypto.

Scarblac 5y ago

Energy is fungible, we don't have 100% green energy and won't for a very long time, we make up the difference with fossil. Even if crypto used green energy only, it means more fossil burned. To continue human civilization we need to stop fossil burning as much as possible, crypto is unnecessary and should therefore be stopped.

onethought 5y ago
But that is solved with a price on carbon. That would make mining without renewables unprofitable. How do you argue that something is unnecessary? Aluminum uses heaps of energy… we haven’t needed in for 1000s of years, is it neccersary?

gjulianm 5y ago

It's not a straw man. Yes, if the energy mix was only reliant of renewables, energy usage wouldn't be as much as a problem. But it is not, and won't be in years, decades, so we can't just brush off the energy usage of crypto as "well it's the energy mix fault". You cannot evaluate a technology in isolation of its real world, practical context. Not to mention that even with renewables, energy usage would be still a concern. Renewables will still have issues around distribution, power peaks, energy storage, price, and crypto wouldn't be helping any of them. A discussion of how would crypto affect the rest of the people compared to the benefit it brings would still be relevant.

throwaway554 5y ago
56% of energy used for Bitcoin mining is coming from renewable sources of energy.
- gjulianm 5y ago
  Is there a source for that? Last time I checked there weren't reliable reports even on total energy usage, much less energy sources.
  - throwaway554 5y ago
    https://www.hope.com/content/dam/hope-assets/collateral/Mining-Council-Press-Release-Q2_07-01-2021.pdf https://www.hope.com/content/dam/hope-assets/collateral/Mini...
    - gjulianm 5y ago
      That's a self-reported survey by members of a Bitcoin mining council, which represent an unknown portion of the total mining capacity, and if I'm correct the term "sustainable energy" includes "carbon-based energy with net emission credits". It doesn't seem the most reliable source to me.
- Applejinx 5y ago
  That is one heck of a waste, at a time when managing the thermal runaway of our planet is a matter of great and immediate urgency.
  - throwaway554 5y ago
    Separating money from the state is worth the cost.
    - malermeister 5y ago
      I think this is what every crypto argument secretly comes down to, this ideological disagreement. I don't want money to be separated from the state, and especially not at a cost. One man's crypto-anarchocapitalist utopia is another man's dystopian capitalist nightmare that we sacrificed our environment for.

joe-collins 5y ago

If crypto was only mined on renewables and there was sufficient (and sufficiently distributed) renewable energy that the presence of crypto did not otherwise detract from our desperately overdue de-carbonization efforts, then sure, whatever, knock yourselves out melting your processors to do funny math. But that isn't the reality we live in. The environmental aspect is manifestly a part of how crypto phenomenon, and attempts to separate the underlying technology from the manner in which it is (and for the foreseeable future, will continue to be) used, are disingenuous at best.

svennek 5y ago

I think the renewable energy is the real straw-man. What about the non-recycable waste after "renewable" energy. Windmills have steel coated by epoxy wings, those cannot be recycled. Solar panels is also ready for the trash-heap after 20 years, due to being a complex composite.. The only real energy source that would help would be nuclear, but even if we get that where have more efficient room-heaters and better use of the computing.. (protein folding could be one for example)

onethought 5y ago
Solar panels aren’t complex composites. They are silicon with some coatings on it. You can definitely recycle them.

CorrectHorseBat 5y ago

Renewables have environmental impact too.

delusional 5y ago

Renewable are also not free. The technology of crypto (as it exists today) is more energy consuming than a single computer processing all the transactions centrally. No matter how you cut it, that delta is waste if the additional functionality is useless.

beepbooptheory 5y ago

Your argument lacks a modal operator I think.

kortilla 5y ago

That’s not a straw man. It’s literally how huge portions of crypto are mined right now. Were you trying to say “red herring”? Regardless, energy is a market and even if crypto used purely renewable energy, that’s energy that wasn’t used for replacing fossil fuels in some other use case. Literally any technology that massively boosts energy consumption has the same problem.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bigbillheck 5y ago

Crypto mining is using renewable capacity that could be used for other purposes.