7 ms·

A German State Is Saying Goodbye Windows, Hello Linux

77 points by CRConrad 5y ago

sschueller 5y ago
What is cheaper/easier, teaching people how to be security adverse/prevent ransomware havoc on windows or teaching them to use open office?
- csdreamer7 5y ago
  OnlyOffice is pretty good these days. Also AGPL. Install with the snap: sudo snap install onlyoffice-desktopeditors
  - alvarlagerlof 5y ago
    Do you assume everyone here has snap?
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      sudo apt-get snap or sudo rpm-install snap¹ ? :-) ___ 1: Or however it goes.
belltaco 5y ago
>No Linux distribution has been chosen yet to use as a standard, although Albrecht said they’re currently looking at five distributions that suit their purposes. Hmm.
pjmlp 5y ago
Just wait until the next federal elections to see where it goes.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  The new federal government seems somewhat in favor of free software solutions (ideologically only one out of the three parties really supports it, but the european independence theme will fuel it further). But that doesn’t matter that much because this decision has been made on the state level.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    As expected, https://www.heise.de/news/Open-Source-Office-fuer-Behoerden-Bayern-will-nicht-mitmachen-6272573.html https://www.heise.de/news/Open-Source-Office-fuer-Behoerden-...
iso1210 5y ago
2006 called and wants its negotiation techniques back https://slashdot.org/story/06/10/28/226211/munich-migrating-to-linux https://slashdot.org/story/06/10/28/226211/munich-migrating-...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- squarefoot 5y ago
  The Munich Linux/Windows saga is an endless story: they switched from Windows to Linux, then Microsoft started a huge lobbying campaign, including moving its German headquarters in Munich, and the Munich council backpedaled away from Open Source software, but it looks like they're now attempting it again. https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-germany-moves-into-a-new-headquarters/ https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-germany-moves-into-a-new-h... https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-i... My biggest fear is that this time it might be Microsoft themselves to offer a Linux solution: their Linux of course, with lots of strings attached (blobs, proprietary libraries, Microsoft-only services, etc)
Zigurd 5y ago
I am surprised more governments do not require more open source systems. But that should just be the beginning: To maintain autonomy, they need to organize multilateral efforts to audit them for back doors. They also need to look beyond current generation systems. Even with a lot of auditing and security testing, it is questionable whether current generation systems can be secured.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Open Source in this scenario is a bit of a canard. It doesn't matter that much. And cost is less of an issue either: the cost of an OS per person is about the cost of a single support call to IT, so if an OS can make things 'just that much easier' it's worth it. I think the most important issue aside from the direct comparables is switching costs. If you get tied into an OS, then there's too much leverage.
lloydatkinson 5y ago
They seem to do this every couple of years. Frankly it seems they have nothing else to do or worry about, so good for them perhaps?
2Gkashmiri 5y ago
so how... exactly does microsoft lobby the governments into paying them a truckload of money in perpetuity for something essentially free and libre? sure there is consultancy involved in foss and IMO that is a better use of money because locals are being paid instead of a megacorp. still, why do you rely on "macros" ? why isnt cash being paid to developers in adding more missing features in libreoffice instead of microsoft?
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  I think you've hinted at a more beneficial model. This idea is something I've been tossing around for a bit as well. What if there was no proprietary code? What if every company that uses software has a team of devs? Not to build stuff just for that company, but to contribute to the open source projects that the company relies on. They would be able to handle the features they need entirely in house, and if multiple companies need the same or similar features this allows more resources to be put towards that thing FOSS software would be actively maintained but a massive network of the companies that use the software, instead of relying on the small teams or individuals for whom its a pet project I think this system would generate far more robust software and the ecosystem to support it
  - 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
    yeah. I contribute to libreoffice with any bug i encounter during my daily work, i report it. If i had the dev chops, i would've fixed this myself. Now, if i were an organisation like the the german government. Why can't they hire local developers and fix immediate problems, push the fix and everyone is happy?
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      That's exactly the idea! The government and companies generally have IT Dept's now, sometimes with a dev team. Those resources can be geared towards supporting and contributing to open source (that they use internally) instead of giving money to these corporations for shit support and "maybe we'll add the feature you want (but probably not, and we're increasing the cost BTW ^^)"
ThinkBeat 5y ago
>We have been testing LibreOffice in our IT department >for two years, and our experience is clear: it works Of course, the IT department made it work. What is needed is employee acceptance and blessing. Hopefully, they will have workshops and focus groups to ensure that the staff of 26.000 (*) likes the change and welcomes it. Ideally the employees would be allowed to vote on the change. after being given a chance to get familiar with it. I am 90% sure that vote would be against the change. This is a major inconvenience for nearly all of them. You get together a gang of 65 year old civil servants who have learned how to do their job one way and have done it one way, to suddenly figure out. Then the migration the 100s or more templates that they have carefully formatted and laid out to ensure consistent communication with the public and everyone else. And for them to be as productive as they are today, after the change. I help my grandpa and some of his friends with "computers". For most of them if an icon on the desktop, or a button in an application moves they give up.
- wanderingmind 5y ago
  Maybe the savings from moving to Linux can be shared with the employees and that can help to tilt the vote in favour.
  - gus_massa 5y ago
    An Office license is ~$250. Let's assume that it's for one year, but I expect it to las2 2-5 years until an upgrade is purchased. I'm not sure about the salary of a public employee in Germany, but can I guess ~$50000 annual. So if you give the $250 to each employee instead of Microsoft, it's a raise of 0.5%. Edit: The Windows license is ~$200, but I don't expect it to be renewed annually.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  > I am 90% sure that vote would be against the change. > This is a major inconvenience for nearly all of them. I agree it’ll be an (arguably worth it) inconvenience. Whether it’ll be major will be determined by the migration effort. The migration of a local association’s administration from Windows to Linux went mostly unnoticed by the users.
RappingBoomer 5y ago
surprised that some version of android is not making gains in this area
rad_gruchalski 5y ago
Yeah, right.

77 points by CRConrad 5y ago

What is cheaper/easier, teaching people how to be security adverse/prevent ransomware havoc on windows or teaching them to use open office?

csdreamer7 5y ago
OnlyOffice is pretty good these days. Also AGPL. Install with the snap: sudo snap install onlyoffice-desktopeditors
- alvarlagerlof 5y ago
  Do you assume everyone here has snap?
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    sudo apt-get snap or sudo rpm-install snap¹ ? :-) ___ 1: Or however it goes.

belltaco 5y ago

>No Linux distribution has been chosen yet to use as a standard, although Albrecht said they’re currently looking at five distributions that suit their purposes. Hmm.

pjmlp 5y ago

Just wait until the next federal elections to see where it goes.

solarkraft 5y ago
The new federal government seems somewhat in favor of free software solutions (ideologically only one out of the three parties really supports it, but the european independence theme will fuel it further). But that doesn’t matter that much because this decision has been made on the state level.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  As expected, https://www.heise.de/news/Open-Source-Office-fuer-Behoerden-Bayern-will-nicht-mitmachen-6272573.html https://www.heise.de/news/Open-Source-Office-fuer-Behoerden-...

iso1210 5y ago

2006 called and wants its negotiation techniques back https://slashdot.org/story/06/10/28/226211/munich-migrating-to-linux https://slashdot.org/story/06/10/28/226211/munich-migrating-...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
squarefoot 5y ago
The Munich Linux/Windows saga is an endless story: they switched from Windows to Linux, then Microsoft started a huge lobbying campaign, including moving its German headquarters in Munich, and the Munich council backpedaled away from Open Source software, but it looks like they're now attempting it again. https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-germany-moves-into-a-new-headquarters/ https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-germany-moves-into-a-new-h... https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-i... My biggest fear is that this time it might be Microsoft themselves to offer a Linux solution: their Linux of course, with lots of strings attached (blobs, proprietary libraries, Microsoft-only services, etc)

Zigurd 5y ago

I am surprised more governments do not require more open source systems. But that should just be the beginning: To maintain autonomy, they need to organize multilateral efforts to audit them for back doors. They also need to look beyond current generation systems. Even with a lot of auditing and security testing, it is questionable whether current generation systems can be secured.

jollybean 5y ago
Open Source in this scenario is a bit of a canard. It doesn't matter that much. And cost is less of an issue either: the cost of an OS per person is about the cost of a single support call to IT, so if an OS can make things 'just that much easier' it's worth it. I think the most important issue aside from the direct comparables is switching costs. If you get tied into an OS, then there's too much leverage.

lloydatkinson 5y ago

They seem to do this every couple of years. Frankly it seems they have nothing else to do or worry about, so good for them perhaps?

2Gkashmiri 5y ago

so how... exactly does microsoft lobby the governments into paying them a truckload of money in perpetuity for something essentially free and libre? sure there is consultancy involved in foss and IMO that is a better use of money because locals are being paid instead of a megacorp. still, why do you rely on "macros" ? why isnt cash being paid to developers in adding more missing features in libreoffice instead of microsoft?

netizen-936824 5y ago
I think you've hinted at a more beneficial model. This idea is something I've been tossing around for a bit as well. What if there was no proprietary code? What if every company that uses software has a team of devs? Not to build stuff just for that company, but to contribute to the open source projects that the company relies on. They would be able to handle the features they need entirely in house, and if multiple companies need the same or similar features this allows more resources to be put towards that thing FOSS software would be actively maintained but a massive network of the companies that use the software, instead of relying on the small teams or individuals for whom its a pet project I think this system would generate far more robust software and the ecosystem to support it
- 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
  yeah. I contribute to libreoffice with any bug i encounter during my daily work, i report it. If i had the dev chops, i would've fixed this myself. Now, if i were an organisation like the the german government. Why can't they hire local developers and fix immediate problems, push the fix and everyone is happy?
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    That's exactly the idea! The government and companies generally have IT Dept's now, sometimes with a dev team. Those resources can be geared towards supporting and contributing to open source (that they use internally) instead of giving money to these corporations for shit support and "maybe we'll add the feature you want (but probably not, and we're increasing the cost BTW ^^)"

ThinkBeat 5y ago

>We have been testing LibreOffice in our IT department >for two years, and our experience is clear: it works Of course, the IT department made it work. What is needed is employee acceptance and blessing. Hopefully, they will have workshops and focus groups to ensure that the staff of 26.000 (*) likes the change and welcomes it. Ideally the employees would be allowed to vote on the change. after being given a chance to get familiar with it. I am 90% sure that vote would be against the change. This is a major inconvenience for nearly all of them. You get together a gang of 65 year old civil servants who have learned how to do their job one way and have done it one way, to suddenly figure out. Then the migration the 100s or more templates that they have carefully formatted and laid out to ensure consistent communication with the public and everyone else. And for them to be as productive as they are today, after the change. I help my grandpa and some of his friends with "computers". For most of them if an icon on the desktop, or a button in an application moves they give up.

wanderingmind 5y ago
Maybe the savings from moving to Linux can be shared with the employees and that can help to tilt the vote in favour.
- gus_massa 5y ago
  An Office license is ~$250. Let's assume that it's for one year, but I expect it to las2 2-5 years until an upgrade is purchased. I'm not sure about the salary of a public employee in Germany, but can I guess ~$50000 annual. So if you give the $250 to each employee instead of Microsoft, it's a raise of 0.5%. Edit: The Windows license is ~$200, but I don't expect it to be renewed annually.
solarkraft 5y ago
> I am 90% sure that vote would be against the change. > This is a major inconvenience for nearly all of them. I agree it’ll be an (arguably worth it) inconvenience. Whether it’ll be major will be determined by the migration effort. The migration of a local association’s administration from Windows to Linux went mostly unnoticed by the users.

RappingBoomer 5y ago

surprised that some version of android is not making gains in this area

rad_gruchalski 5y ago

Yeah, right.